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Post subject:Russian Church Spire
 Posted: Jul 25, 2006 - 04:51 AM #5039
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Pro Tinner
Joined: Jul 05, 2003
Posts: 170
Location: West side of no man's land
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Hello All.
Yes, for those who remember, it's me. I realized that it's just 5 days short of one year.
I was watching tonight's CBS Evening News-- the National version-- and saw a report on 'Helmets to Hardhats.' This is something to give the returning Vets a hand up for a new life following their time abroad. Of course it made me think of you guys, and so I felt like coming back and say Hi, and perhaps toss a few cents back into the mix.
So, as my subject line states, I'm looking into doing a smaller version of some of those old Russian Church Spires in Moscow.
No, I won't have any gold to place on it, but I will try it in copper.
The spire will be 4 feet in diameter, and 5 feet tall. Here is a link to the one's in Russia.
http://www.russia-in-us.com/Religion/Ch ... penski.jpg
And to the general directory of various church imagery.
http://www.russia-in-us.com/Religion/Ch ... chitec.htm
Scroll down to mid-page.
For those who aren't religiously inclined, this is not to foist a belief upon you, but to just show the architectural beauty of old tin work from days of yore.
Anybody ever done any domes, or spires like this before?
Back from no man's land.
Best,
SteveB. |
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Post subject:RE: Russian Church Spire
Posted: Jul 25, 2006 - 12:10 PM #5040
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Moderator
Joined: May 13, 2003
Posts: 1354
Location: Waukesha
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| Great to see you stop back! |
_________________
"If you make your job important it is quite likely to return the favor" Author Unknown
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Post subject:RE: Russian Church Spire
Posted: Jul 25, 2006 - 12:13 PM #5041
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Pro Tinner
Joined: Sep 03, 2003
Posts: 179
Location: edinburgh
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| There is a really good pattern for a spiral finial in the book "The geometry of sheet metal work "by A.Dickason, aw ra best Marky |
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Post subject:Spire pattern
Posted: Jul 27, 2006 - 02:35 AM #5042
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Pro Tinner
Joined: Jul 05, 2003
Posts: 170
Location: West side of no man's land
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Bud,
Do you have a copy of this old text that Mark mentioned, or is it in the library?
I was just going to tinker my way through it, based on what I've seen with other, similarly patterned spires. I.e., Daughterty has a round one, without the point, and I've also been to Jerusalem-- back in 1979, and have looked at modern pictures of the "Dome of the Rock" mosque, to glean ideas from them.
As I develop my thoughts further on this, I'll be drawing it in ACad, and will post my ideas.
Best to all.
SteveB.
off to paint my "new" old shelving. |
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Post subject:RE: Russian Church Spire
Posted: Jul 27, 2006 - 11:57 AM #5043
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Moderator
Joined: May 13, 2003
Posts: 1354
Location: Waukesha
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Hey Steve, I don't have it, but will if I get a copy and can do so. But we do have the orginal copy of The Metal Workers Pattern Book complete in the library? And we do have the 2nd edition of William Neubeckers book full of this sort of layout..did you look at theses?
I have much more to add to the library with in the next couple of months (summer is a bit busy here) Hang in there...
I have the original copy 1929 Standard Practice in Sheet Metal Work..I'll look for you in there tonight.
Taker Easy |
_________________
"If you make your job important it is quite likely to return the favor" Author Unknown
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Post subject:RE: Russian Church Spire
Posted: Jul 27, 2006 - 12:06 PM #5044
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Pro Tinner
Joined: Sep 03, 2003
Posts: 179
Location: edinburgh
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| I will download a copy of these pages asap .sorry dont know how to do a whole book .Mark |
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Post subject:RE: Russian Church Spire
Posted: Jul 27, 2006 - 12:12 PM #5045
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Moderator
Joined: May 13, 2003
Posts: 1354
Location: Waukesha
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| Thanks! |
_________________
"If you make your job important it is quite likely to return the favor" Author Unknown
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Post subject:update on spire drawing
Posted: Aug 15, 2006 - 06:50 AM #5134
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Pro Tinner
Joined: Jul 05, 2003
Posts: 170
Location: West side of no man's land
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Hi all.
I've been tinkering with this thing in A-Cad, and have come up with the following.
In attempting to make this a 3-d device, CAD does not like my process. For those in the know, I tried extruding it, and it did not work. As a result, I converted the profile to a polyline, and arrayed it, with 100 elements. I'm attaching that, as a pdf.
I do have Solid Works, but in trying that, I get more of a machined looking part. Nice, IF I wanted it machined, but NOT.
As to the reponses, no, I haven't yet looked at any of the referenced books. I'll do that.
Hope all is well with everyone. |
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Post subject:RE: Russian Church Spire
Posted: Aug 15, 2006 - 06:51 AM #5135
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Pro Tinner
Joined: Jul 05, 2003
Posts: 170
Location: West side of no man's land
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good, it worked.
Night all.
Best |
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Post subject:next image
Posted: Aug 16, 2006 - 05:34 AM #5141
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Pro Tinner
Joined: Jul 05, 2003
Posts: 170
Location: West side of no man's land
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Hi all-- again.
After tossing and turning on my bed last night for a good 20 or 30 minutes, it dawned on me how to pursue this.
Albeit, it's going to be a very tedious manner of doing so.
So, for starters, here is a PDF of the initial starting points.
The image from last night was a mid-start-point, just to get some folks' mouths drooling. I know-- motivation, right?
SteveB. |
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Post subject:RE: Russian Church Spire
Posted: Aug 16, 2006 - 05:36 AM #5142
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Pro Tinner
Joined: Jul 05, 2003
Posts: 170
Location: West side of no man's land
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| ugh... I forgot to state something-- ignore the inch marks that are seen with the dimensions. ALL dimensions are to be in FEET. |
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Post subject:RE: Russian Church Spire
Posted: Aug 19, 2006 - 05:58 PM #5152
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Pro Tinner
Joined: Apr 17, 2004
Posts: 266
Location: Central Ohio
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Hello all,
Hey SteveB, aside from the cad issues, how do you plan on covering it. Flat-lock? Standing seam? something else? In my work world, I would get to the project, the dome would already exist and I would begin trying to figure out how to cover it in the field as opposed to shop work. An interesting shape to tackle. I would measure the bottom circumference and divide it into equal parts based on the width of the flat-lock panels I wanted to use. Then I would cut a strip of metal as long as the distance from the top point to the bottom as measured on the surface of the dome. Making the strip lie flat on the surface, I would run it along the curves from the point down to one of my marks at the bottom. Scribe the line along the edge between the two points. Doing the same thing again, but from top to the next adjacent mark at the bottom, I will have two lines running beside one another (but not parallel) from the point at the top to two marks at the bottom. These two lines will describe the width of my panels for each horizontal row I lay out. The horizontal divisions that would establish the height of my panels could all be equal sized slices through the dome, but I would probably goof around with the various widths and make some rows wider than others to accentuate the shape of the thing. But one always has to size the panels so that they keep to the shape they are covering which usually means smaller rather than larger. Once I have my two vertical lines drawn and my horizontals drawn, I have the size and shape of panel that I'll need for each row around the spire. I then just have to add for my seams everywhere and make all of the panels for that row from the same pattern. All that is except the last one which will undoubtably have to be adjusted in width to come out just right. Repeat the process for each row as I work my way to the top. I would also determine where the major viewpoint was and start just off of the opposite side from that so that my bastard panel at the end of each run would end up in the back out of sight.
This would be my original plan of attack, but I can never seem to pass up the opportunity to fool around trying to elaborate things so I could easily end up doing it some other way once I started thinking about it. Ah, the possibilities!!!
Later, |
_________________
Steve
Blissfully Ignorant Copperhead
www.copperthings.com
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Post subject:Here are one's I've seen
Posted: Aug 19, 2006 - 07:32 PM #5153
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Moderator
Joined: May 13, 2003
Posts: 1354
Location: Waukesha
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Dome styles from "The Standard Practice in Sheet Metal Work 1929
There are a couple more images here if you want them, I have an original copy of the 1929 "Standard Practice in Sheet Metal Work" They still sell this book for around $300.00..I'm trying to find if it's still copyrighted? It would make a beautiful addition to the library:0
Take care all! |
_________________
"If you make your job important it is quite likely to return the favor" Author Unknown
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Post subject:RE: Russian Church Spire
Posted: Aug 21, 2006 - 03:36 AM #5155
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Pro Tinner
Joined: Jul 05, 2003
Posts: 170
Location: West side of no man's land
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Steve,
Flat lock would be the connection format.
As Bud has shown immediately above this response.
Trying to do a standing seam is asking for more agony than can be described.
Bud, this book is in fact still copyrighted.
SMACNA decided years ago it was a text well worth its weight in platinum. As such, they renewed the copyrights, and sell it for an ungodly amount of money. Ironically, I do in fact have that text-- it's about 5 feet from my present location, on the bookshelf.
FYI- SMACNA sells the book for 246.00, or 177.00 IF you're a member. I'll leave it you guys to grab the web page for SMACNA. I just typed the title into my choice of search engines, and returned numerous responses.
I vaguely remember paying around $180.00 for my copy about 8 years ago.
My ideas on this, while indeed tedious, are actually coming together. I'm around 1/3 of the way through drawing it.
I'll post an update shortly.
I will however state this.
As I've been considering, and drawing this thing, I've begun wondering if the people who built the one's in Russia built a wood structure first, and then did their layout on the structure. Once they did their layout, they formed the panels on site, with a portable bending device of some configuration. In all honesty, it'd be nice to speak with some Russian tin-benders who've serviced these churches, and find out their practices.
Oh, Steve, one last thing about the flat locks.
My only questions have to do with how they do the final course of panels. I.e., at the beginning, the panel will have the "inner" lock exposed. When the panels come all the way around, the last "row" will also have an "inner" lock exposed. Thus, making me wonder if I'd have to do two "outer" locks, and slip each panel over the two previous ones.
I guess that I'll find out once I get there.
Ok, one more- so I lied, shoot me- I'm doing all of this drawing in CAD to reduce the amount of time that I'd spend actually beuilding this thing. SAdly, it's been long enough, that I'd always be going back to make modifications, as ideas progressed with it.
Have a great week all.
Best,
SteveB. |
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Post subject:plan view of spire layout
Posted: Aug 21, 2006 - 03:50 AM #5156
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Pro Tinner
Joined: Jul 05, 2003
Posts: 170
Location: West side of no man's land
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Hi guys.
I've done a PDF of the plan view of my intended layout format.
Enjoy. |
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Post subject:RE: Russian Church Spire
Posted: Aug 21, 2006 - 01:06 PM #5157
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Pro Tinner
Joined: Apr 17, 2004
Posts: 266
Location: Central Ohio
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| Yes SteveB, that last panel in each row is the one I refered to as the bastard panel. Not only does it have to be made to fit whatever space is left, the locks are turned differently. I've had to fit those type of panels that grab two uplocks many times. Once you do it you get the hang of it. I ususally turn one side's hems to about 45deg. or a little more and turn the other side just past 90deg. Then I hook the 45deg. side and while pushing toward the unlocked side I use a piece of metal (~2"x6") with a 90deg 3/4" bend in the end as a tool to start the two 90+deg. hems going together at one end. While pushing the panel down and pulling it toward the lock I'm working on, I slide the tool down the lock causing the two hems to lock together. Like using a slip to get something to slide inside of an opening. The panels just click together and then I use a board and a hammer to beat them down. Worst thing a guy can do is to make them too tight. I always add a quarter of an inch to my measurement plus locks. Get them too tight, then you find out the other reason I call them bastard panels! Because they have two down locks they will have a different finish exposed dimension that's why I mentioned starting in the back and ending in the back so that the would be somewhat hidden from view. Not that most people would see the difference anyway. |
_________________
Steve
Blissfully Ignorant Copperhead
www.copperthings.com
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Post subject:bastards they are....
Posted: Aug 22, 2006 - 01:59 AM #5161
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Pro Tinner
Joined: Jul 05, 2003
Posts: 170
Location: West side of no man's land
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Yep. That's what I'd like to avoid. Hence, my drawing it first. It allows me-- technically-- to do pretty much the standard orthographic projection, but then allows me to take it one step farther, and do it in 3d, thus allowing me to see any problems-- before I actually place one finger on the copper.
If you looked at my plan view, it's definitely NOT the standard design.
My next thought on the bastard panel as you call them, is what about moisture leaks? It seems to me that by having to do the exposed hem in this manner, it's just begging for water to pour down the upper edge.
Do you use any bitumen Ice/Water shielding for underlayment, or ...?
Thanks for your ideas. They do indeed help my thought processes.
Best,
SteveB. |
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Post subject:RE: Russian Church Spire
Posted: Aug 22, 2006 - 02:08 AM #5162
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Pro Tinner
Joined: Jul 05, 2003
Posts: 170
Location: West side of no man's land
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Another thought that's been bugging me, and now I see why.
With the format that the old "Standard Practices in Sheet Metal" -as Bud's shown above-- uses, they appear to maintain a parallel course of panels from base to top. Perhaps that's how they overcome the leak issue I mentioned above.
My idea is to do a helical/spiral radial spread from top to bottom. I hope that makes sense. Hence my plan view submitted above as the pdf.
In my mind, this is what makes it as challenging as it appears to be. |
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Post subject:RE: Russian Church Spire
Posted: Aug 22, 2006 - 12:05 PM #5166
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Pro Tinner
Joined: Sep 03, 2003
Posts: 179
Location: edinburgh
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Hi Steve i have been having problems with my attatchments [add your own joke] so i have sent the promised drawings to Bud who will hopefully post them for me ,yours ignorant in technology.  Mark |
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Post subject:RE: Russian Church Spire
Posted: Aug 22, 2006 - 12:37 PM #5168
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Pro Tinner
Joined: Apr 17, 2004
Posts: 266
Location: Central Ohio
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Yes SteveB, the use of "rings" of successive horizontal panels has the top lock of each panel being an uplock that is hooked by the panels in the row applied above it. Same with the spiral application of the diamond panels in the illustration above. I've used that diamond configuation before, and it has the quality of laying nice and flat on curved surfaces.
The bastard panel in my experience cannot be avoided because of the accumulation of small variables in the installed rows of panels. either way you go, after installing a series of panels, not only is the last one going to be somewhat different in size from the others in the row, but different also in size from row to row.
What is going to be the shape of your individual panels? I shudder from fright when I think of curved flat lock seams! |
_________________
Steve
Blissfully Ignorant Copperhead
www.copperthings.com
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