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Post subject:RE: Russian Church Spire
 Posted: Aug 22, 2006 - 11:53 PM #5174
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Webmaster
Joined: May 13, 2003
Posts: 1321
Location: Waukesha
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Hey Mark, I didn't get them? Or maybe I did and didn't see them...I'll check my spam folder, it maybe got redirected, I'm not sure why?
If you can send them attachments to me at budgoodmansplinter@wi.rr.com (remove the splinter) I learndt that splinter trick from Glen:) it saves on the spam:) |
_________________
"If you make your job important it is quite likely to return the favor" Author Unknown
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Post subject:shape of panels
Posted: Aug 23, 2006 - 10:49 PM #5180
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Power User
Joined: Jul 05, 2003
Posts: 170
Location: West side of no man's land
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I'm almost to the point where I can actually answer that, without guessing.
When I get there, I'll make a PDF of it, and we can all laugh at how challenging it'll be.
At this point, I do think they'll be curved, but I can only guess.
Until then.... it's a wait.
MArk- do you have Acrobat to make a PDF of the file? |
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Post subject:RE: Russian Church Spire
Posted: Aug 30, 2006 - 05:31 AM #5201
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Power User
Joined: Jul 05, 2003
Posts: 170
Location: West side of no man's land
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Hi Guys.
I'm alsmost done with my drawing. I have gotten far enough to see that it is in fact going to have "curved" edges for the panels. So, forming the flange/hems/seams will definitely be a challenge. Not impossible, but a challenge-- mainly time consuming.
For other news along this line, I have looked up some Russian web sites for metal suppliers in an attempt to locate a metal contractor who would have knowledge of how these are made. The idea was that there must be some body in Russia, or Moscow who actually has to service these things once in while.
I also learned something about the architect who designed the church where this is.
It turns out that Ivan the Terrible had it commissioned, and then blinded the architect to prevent another one of them, of comparable beauty, from being made. Talking about a one time custom job. Sure glad I never worked for Ivan! Of course, with technology that existed back then-- 1500's, it may have been a good 10 to 20 year project.
Best. |
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Post subject:update on spire drawing
Posted: Sep 09, 2006 - 05:09 AM #5232
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Power User
Joined: Jul 05, 2003
Posts: 170
Location: West side of no man's land
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Hey all.
It's still moving forward-- ever so slowly, but steady progress is being made.
To the "other" Steve-- the panels are in fact "rounded."
Thus far, I've only done 5 of the 7 panels.
I'll get some updated attachments soon. |
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Post subject:Images of drawings
Posted: Sep 09, 2006 - 07:46 PM #5236
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Power User
Joined: Jul 05, 2003
Posts: 170
Location: West side of no man's land
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Hi all.
Ok, here are a number of images. Individuals so they can actually be seen, and understood. It should be noted that I'm one panel short of the complete set.
This should open up the question part. Ask away. |
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Post subject:second run of images-- the rest of them.
Posted: Sep 09, 2006 - 07:58 PM #5237
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Power User
Joined: Jul 05, 2003
Posts: 170
Location: West side of no man's land
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Ok, I didn't know that I couldn't post all 7 of them.
I guess that's what I get for not reading the rules.
This is the last of the set-- for now. |
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Post subject:RE: Russian Church Spire
Posted: Sep 11, 2006 - 05:25 PM #5247
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Power User
Joined: Sep 16, 2003
Posts: 213
Location: McEwen, TN.
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S teve have you been here?http://www.copper.org/applications/architecture/arch_dhb/domes_spires_vaults/dome_diagonal_flat_seam.html
bordontn |
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Post subject:RE: Russian Church Spire
Posted: Sep 12, 2006 - 05:17 AM #5248
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Power User
Joined: Jul 05, 2003
Posts: 170
Location: West side of no man's land
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Bordontn,
I have now!
Thanks for the link.
While there are differences, it appears to be what I was wanting to do.
I did download the cad files, and will review them in detail.
The profile of the gutter they're using would require a multipiece layout, and lots of soldering. However, I've actually done gutter like this before.
Thanks.
I'm now formally done with my drawing. I'll upload the last two files tomorrow afternoon when I get home from work.
Thanks guys. |
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Post subject:last of the panels.
Posted: Sep 13, 2006 - 03:11 AM #5250
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Power User
Joined: Jul 05, 2003
Posts: 170
Location: West side of no man's land
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Hi all.
Here are the last of the panels.
The one that Bordontn showed me-- copper.org/-- is better than the one I've drawn up. Mostly because if deals with the cap/ top portion of the spire in a different manner that mine.
It also has many more panels than mine, and deals with the "curvature" of the panels better. This is critical when making panels up. Trying to form the flat seams with a roll-former/easy-edger is far more time-consuming, and tedious than being able to brake them up with a drive/B&P brake.
However, this was to be mostly a foray into a realm that I'd not had the pleasure of doing while working, and had wanted to dating back to my apprenticeship. So, my thoughts on it were due to the images from the Russian, and other webpages not being real clear, or even detailed. They also were borne of generalized ideas of how they would go together IF they were idealized-- sadly, a product of my physics studies.
The initial problems that I see with my design is that forming the panels would be tedious, as a result of their being well over 1 foot in length, and have curved edges-- on all four sides. This would mean that 140 panels-- 7 panels per "gore" and 20 gores-- would need to be run through an easy edger, or other wheel roll-former, and then rolled in the slip-rolls to obtain the round/spherical shape of the design.
Hence the reason for drawing it first. It may have taken me some 30 odd hours of drawing it, but it was still less expensive than trying to do it with metal first, and realizing halfway through that it wasn't going to work. |
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Post subject:RE: Russian Church Spire
Posted: Sep 13, 2006 - 12:17 PM #5251
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Power User
Joined: Apr 17, 2004
Posts: 258
Location: Central Ohio
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| Well SteveB at least you pulled up before your head exploded! It was an interesting idea, allthough I thought all along that hemming the curved edges would be a tremendous pain in the posterior, it was the two-directional curving of individual panels that broke the camel's back. I have never been able to get that together without the use of more elaborate equipment. I have always had to design my way aroung such things. Those square shaped panels lend themselves nicely to curving both ways as you apply them. By elongating the vertical axis, they can be made as diamonds which also form well to the shape and have a look I seem to recall seeing on an onion or two. Oh well it's been a fun ride SteveB thanks for the gas. |
_________________
Steve
Blissfully Ignorant Copperhead
www.copperthings.com
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Post subject:RE: Russian Church Spire
Posted: Sep 14, 2006 - 04:57 AM #5252
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Power User
Joined: Jul 05, 2003
Posts: 170
Location: West side of no man's land
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Hey Steve2,
Actually my head has gotten so far past exploding that it was fun to take a break from my other stuff.
Exploding heads is for studying physics-- which I amazingly made it through. That's when my head really began hurting.
My next idea will be to review the package that bordontn showed me off of the copper.org site.
While my idea was more challenging on the fabrication side, I think the correct way will be more challenging on the layout side. I.e., far too many panels. I didn't count but it looked like there were around 30 to 40 panels per gore, and at least 50 or so gores.
Of course, I'd think that as long as one had an apprentice on hand to sink screws on the clips, installing it would go fairly quickly.
With the one's you've done, what'd you face at the peaks?
Best,
SteveB. |
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Post subject:RE: Russian Church Spire
Posted: Sep 14, 2006 - 12:23 PM #5253
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Power User
Joined: Apr 17, 2004
Posts: 258
Location: Central Ohio
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SteveB,
I was just this morning looking at an article about St. Basil's in Red Square on the Wikipedia site http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Basil%27s_Cathedral when I realized that these were the domes you had been talking about! Duh! Anyway, they had some nice pics showing the many different roofs. One of them is indeed patterned like the CDA.org dome that bordontn submitted. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... loseup.jpg
What interests me at this point is how they incorporated reposse shapes into the center of the panels on some of these domes. It also looks as though they used large spiral gores that were then bulged out to give the big 3d shape. Some of the shapes looked like theyy might have been added to the panels before or perhaps after the panels were attached to the roof. Way far out!
When you originally proposed this onion, I had thought of cutting gore pieces that ran straight up the roof from bottom to top and then covering the seams along the sides with elaborate battens. Anyway you look at it there is a lot of bench work on the sand bag. It sure would be fun to do though.
As far as the top is concerned, when one gets to a place where the panels get too small or the scale dictates, it is time for a finial of some design. |
_________________
Steve
Blissfully Ignorant Copperhead
www.copperthings.com
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Post subject:RE: Russian Church Spire
Posted: Sep 14, 2006 - 11:26 PM #5254
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Webmaster
Joined: May 13, 2003
Posts: 1321
Location: Waukesha
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SteveB, I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to try to reducs the size of the images...these are huge...and all the rest of the great read is strretched out and it forces us to scroll to read...ok with you?
Thanks
Bud |
_________________
"If you make your job important it is quite likely to return the favor" Author Unknown
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Post subject:Please do....
Posted: Sep 15, 2006 - 12:57 AM #5255
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Power User
Joined: Jul 05, 2003
Posts: 170
Location: West side of no man's land
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Hey Bud.
Yes, please, by all means shrink those bad puppies!
In fact, while it'd be nice to have them say, thumbnail sized, it'd be even better to make them as attachments instead so that folks can look IF they want, and if not, no worries. After I uploaded them, I realized just how huge they were, and that was NOT my intention.
Thanks for pointing that out. |
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Post subject:RE: Russian Church Spire
Posted: Sep 15, 2006 - 01:02 AM #5256
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Webmaster
Joined: May 13, 2003
Posts: 1321
Location: Waukesha
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| No problem, I appreciate all you do! |
_________________
"If you make your job important it is quite likely to return the favor" Author Unknown
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Post subject:RE: Russian Church Spire
Posted: Sep 15, 2006 - 01:13 AM #5257
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Power User
Joined: Jul 05, 2003
Posts: 170
Location: West side of no man's land
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Steve2,
I agree on the finial statement.
After I'd made my comments last night about the CDA dome, I went back and looked at it more closely, thinking initiallythat it had the spike on top. CDA's does not.
It got me to thinking how then they'd do the spike, and my initial thoughts were towards the finial.
However, having a finial seems like it'd take away from the initial design that the Russians have.
Needless to say that I have been trying to contact some contractors, suppliers in Moscow, and so far no response.
Neither Yahoo, nor Google really have much in the way of Russian businesses in their search database.
Back to the drawing board in my search, and drawing this spire.
Oh, last week I did find a decent image of the one spire that has the 3d shape of interest to me. It is in fact completely different that I'd originally believed, and so my ideas will need to be modified.
Ok, for discussion's sake, I looked at the wikipedia site, and the dome of interest to me is the green and yellow one on the left of the first image they show.
However, what I did notice about theirs is that instead of continuing to spiral around at the top, once it reaches the inside radius, it stops the spiral, and goes almost straight up. This actually surprised me. I did not expect that, and have begun wondering a few things.
1- is this a wood, foam, fiberglass, or other, non-metallic structure? It'd sure make fabrication, and installation/mounting so much easier.
2- If it is metal, the amount of benchwork involved in their's surpasses what we'd have done by a magnitude of 2 or 3. Hence my desire to pursue this. I.e., they can't be the only ones having all of the "fun."
One image that I saw last week showed scaffolding, and wind-break cloth covering the green-yellow spire. If I remember correctly it was in 2002. I.e., one stock photographer had taken numeous photos of the area, and one just happened to show the scaffolding, and cloth. This means that it was "serviced" recently. This means that someone had to be the one's repairing it. This brings up to me the question of: Were they from Russia, or from Europe? Did they do any metal work, or was it just painting, or....?
Plenty of questions, and not enough answers-- YET!
I will however keep you guys apprised, and if by some strange chance anyone has gone to Moscow, and was curious about these spires-- enough to ask questions about them, please let us know.
I do know a couple of Russians locally, I'll ask them- now that I'm thinking about it.
Best to all.
SB |
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Post subject:latest update
Posted: Sep 27, 2006 - 02:35 AM #5275
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Power User
Joined: Jul 05, 2003
Posts: 170
Location: West side of no man's land
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Hi guys.
I'm back from vacation now, and back at my tinkerings.
After long consideration and a time away from this, it appears that this design will indeed require a finial at a specific point to finish off the onion dome.
One thing that I did stumble across before my last post was a site where the guy actually does these with fiberglass, and various choice of colors, giving an incredibly beautiful finish. (this is not an endorsement, it's just for sh** and giggles-- http://hometown.aol.com/heavenscupola/index.html)
I'll use the CDA form that Bordontn submitted, and instead of capping it off with a low-height, round china-cap, I'll take it up an inner radius, and then finish it off with a finial cap-- i.e., a really tall china-cap. Something akin to a wizard's hat.
Sadly, the designs of the St. Basil's Cathedral would make this far too challenging a project-- the 3d parts that stand off of the base dome. By all appearances, these would only be able to be built, with metal, by triangulation. I may be ballsy, but my patience is still not that good. In fact, looking at all the available images I wonder if these are actually wood gores, and not metal. It'd be far easier to do them with wood than metal.
For those intrigued, I strongly encourage you to check them out.
The design of interest to me in reproducing is the large one on the left-- green and yellow.
http://www.pbase.com/bmcmorrow/image/46566535
Best to all.
SteveB.[/u] |
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Post subject:RE: Russian Church Spire
Posted: Sep 27, 2006 - 01:35 PM #5276
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Power User
Joined: Apr 17, 2004
Posts: 258
Location: Central Ohio
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Welcome back SteveB.
Here's hoping you had a good time. Now get to work! (just kidding) You know, I think you could do a dome like the green and red one in the picture using the CDA spec. by leaving the locks somewhat open on the installed panels to give some relief to the edges. I'm not exactly sure how the increase then decrease in the size of the individual diamond panels is determined though. Could it be as simple as just a random determination by the tinknocker? Obviously it is a proportional increase/decrease, but what determines the amount? Once determined though, it would be easy for those of us with modern tech to just photo copy the panel pattern for each succeeding row and increase or decrease the copy by a given percentage, would it not? Oh well, just some random thoughts... |
_________________
Steve
Blissfully Ignorant Copperhead
www.copperthings.com
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