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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
 Posted: Jul 30, 2005 - 12:00 AM #3421
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Joined: Jul 29, 2005
Posts: 1
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, CA
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Being fresh out of high school, I probably have a different viewpoint from a veteran. As well I don't know how rates are in other parts of the world, but our union/journeyman rates are high due to an extremely high demand and extremely low supply.
I believe the problem is that parents and schools try and push kids into white collar jobs, especially those with an aptitude for learning. Although there is the RAP (registered apprentice program, work for half the school year, do high school the other half) program in my province, with good intentions, it is mostly kids with learning disabilities or attendance issues who are pushed this route. Most often these people drop out from the program, or lack the abilities to pass the technical schooling.
A whole new face has to be brought to blue collar jobs. Most of us, myself included, love our jobs, but we are conveyed as low educated slaves. This couldn't be further from the truth, here in Alberta a solid 10 months on the job work, and 10 weeks a year are needed to further your apprenticeship, we do this for 4 years.
The root of the problem is the attitude of parents and teachers, who have a huge part in steering a young person into blue vs white collar work. I had a school counsellor who laughed in my face when I told him I wasn't going to university ( I had very good marks), and basically told me that that was the only way to make a living. Very wrong indeed, I consider myself to be on the path to being highly skilled, highly paid, working a very fulfilling and challenging industry. |
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Aug 01, 2005 - 02:17 AM #3426
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Joined: Jul 07, 2005
Posts: 1
Location: Lockport, IL
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Try being a roofing contractor and finding qualified help..... |
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Aug 16, 2005 - 08:25 PM #3535
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Joined: Aug 16, 2005
Posts: 1
Location: Texas
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| "QUALIFIED" help is a huge issue with plumbing and hvac contractors alike- problems at my company, too. However, I have used www.hvacagent.com and have had luck find good guys- and now they are supposed to be coming out with a plumbing part too- I supposed www.plumbingagent.com. They are worth checking out- but yes we also rely heavy on training once hired- additude is most important! |
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Post subject:Training
Posted: Aug 17, 2005 - 12:59 PM #3539
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Joined: Aug 16, 2005
Posts: 7
Location: England
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Hello All,
I agree with the lack of skilled labour and that is why I have now become a college Lecturer in fabrication & welding to try and pass on some knowledge that seems to be dying out!!  |
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Aug 17, 2005 - 07:18 PM #3541
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Power User
Joined: Jul 05, 2003
Posts: 170
Location: West side of no man's land
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Well Done Andy.
Don't ever retire..... well, maybe never is too long a time for anyone. Go as long as you can. God knows it's needed. |
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Aug 21, 2005 - 02:40 AM #3556
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Joined: May 11, 2003
Posts: 40
Location: Philadelphia, PA.
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Hello All and glad to be back home.
Just so happens that we have been traveling around PA, DE and NJ in an attempt to draw interest of our trade (all of the HVACR trade) to many of the 9th and 10th grade students of high schools. We, Carrier, have donated hundreds of new equipment and parts, hoping to keep some of the schools interested in teaching our business. Seems many of the voc-tech schools have dropped their HVACR programs because of the lack of interest!?!?!?
We have taken on the challenge of trying to recover from our losses. At our annual meeting, back in April, we were reminded that there are approximately 80,000 job openings in all of the construction trades world wide. Most of the openings are in the service end of the businesses (both electrical and mechanical) but still many in the new construction, installation areas as well.
Bottom line here, all of the trades are suffering. Here in Philly, the local unions have even put adds in the newspapers. Even though they are getting many applicants, most of them don't make it past the second year of apprentiship because they really did not have an interest to begin with or they realized that the job was not going to be easy!?
I went on a mission to try and interest young people to come join our trade and Carrier supported me 100%. I had charts and graphs along with power point presentations of the great benifits of being "skilled" in a trade. we donated over 100 brand new motors with control boards and wireing diagrams and class lessons that the teachers could use in their curriculum. Supprisingly, some teachers actually did not have any interest either! We also donated 50 brand new pieces of commercial rooftop units to schools.
I received many questions from those students who attended, but to be honest with you, we only had less than 5% who showed any actual interest in entering into our world. I am not giving up. I will be returning to many schools with the start of the new school year and hopefully we can draw them. Incase you were wondering, we are not going to the post high school schools because we are trying to draw "fresh apples" into our trades. However, if you know of any school (high school or post secondary) that is in my 5 state territory (PA, DE, NJ, MD, NY) then I would certainly be interested in visiting them.
Thank you to everyone for all that you do for our trade!
John |
_________________
Learn...Do...Teach...
Pay attention, be proud of your accomplishments, pass on your knowledge and you will grow!
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Aug 21, 2005 - 03:36 AM #3557
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Webmaster
Joined: May 13, 2003
Posts: 1325
Location: Waukesha
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Jdubya..Glad to see you stop by again...many of us are on the same mission  Let me know how I can be of help...
Email me your number so we can chat again and maybe this time you won't be on the freeway
Bud |
_________________
"If you make your job important it is quite likely to return the favor" Author Unknown
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Sep 09, 2005 - 02:55 AM #3634
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Joined: Jan 09, 2005
Posts: 26
Location: delaware, usa
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i would like to relocate to toronto canada. if any of you folks are from the area, or could offer suggestions on how i might find work there without actually going there and using up all my $$ while i look for work, i sure would appreciate it. i have been making/installing duct for 20 years, and have held foreman and lead-man positions many times. i also am familiar with autocad.
i think i have plenty enough skill to be of use to any good commercial outfit, the trick will be finding one. |
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Dec 16, 2005 - 05:15 PM #4098
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Joined: Dec 02, 2005
Posts: 8
Location: WEST SACRAMENTO
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Hi Guys:
Well in our shop we just quit trying to hire experienced help because we could not find anyone, people in our area have to many options of work (at higher paying jobs) and they don't want to work in a sheet metal shop for some reason, so we opted for on the job training it lets me sharpen my sheetmetal skills and at the same time teach someone new our trade, with technology the way its going you really need to just follow instructions and be familiar with the equipment and what it does (safely of course) and you can work sheet metal, I try to tell the guys at my shop the old way of doing things and then train them on the newer ways. there isn't anything more satisfying than being able to get someone that has been in so many different jobs and cant really say they know anything and turn them into a sheet metal worker . |
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Dec 18, 2005 - 01:38 AM #4100
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Joined: Nov 30, 2005
Posts: 36
Location: mobile,ala
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Thought i would throw my 2 cents into this for what it's worth.I grew up in this businesss 4th generation sheet metal.As far back as i can remember i have allways heard my family talk about finding skilled labor.My dad and uncle both gave up and went union.I have taken some of the advise and have keep my shop to just ME,MYSELF,AND I.All of my work is industrial and commercial ,and have priced myself out of the residental market on purpose.I make it and they pick it up when i get done with it .Granted i put in a lot of weekends and late nites but I know when the job is done .My profit hasn't been thrown away in the dumpster by some guy who has been doing it for 3 or 4 yrs and knows all there is to know about sheet metal . For you guys living in the cold climate looking for work ..all along the gulf coast is screaming for skilled craftsman .This past hurricane season has wipped out complete towns ,chemical plants,casinos ,etc. there is plenty of rebuilding to do .I have made more money this past 3 months since Katrina than i did the previous 6 months .
Daniel |
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Post subject:shortage of help
Posted: Jun 11, 2008 - 06:08 AM #7653
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Joined: Jun 11, 2008
Posts: 1
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I think that the problem of a shortage of skilled help has been created by the employers and the trade unions. First unless you live in a large metropolitan area chances are there just is no enough commercial hvac to support a large union work force. Although there are union contractors who do residential hvac, they just can not compete with scab companies , because they have to pay their guys so much more( rightfully so I might add). Also if you live in a rural area chances are you do not have the ability to seek out a formal apprenticeship training on the complicated nature of sheet metal layout. If you are lucky enough to live in an area with a strong union presence then you have to apply for the apprenticeship program, I did and got it first time out. I had already had 4 years of experience and could layout fittings that most journeyman guys couldn't, but the union said that I had to start from scratch as an apprentice. Rather then sit through five years of night classes I decided to go to college instead. I think a lot of young people like myself would rather sit through college courses and work a desk job rather then get dirty and install hvac. The unions should have an aptitude test in order to make it fair for those coming in with previous experience.
Secondly almost all hvac companies that are in rural areas do residential hvac. Where I live they absolutely rape their customers upon the amounts of thousands of dollars for just a few hours work. They pay their guys crap dirt cheap wages and expect them to provide their own tools. Guys have to work there butts off in 115 degree heat just to make 15 and hour. To hell with that, so most guys who are smart don't do it, they could go work at costco and make more, have benefits for their families and retirement, and profit sharing programs. So why would someone want to learn a skilled trade? There is no incentive set in place to make them want to. Couple that with the fact that there is no real training programs and the fact that bosses like guys to know shit but don't like to show them how to do things just makes the situation an on going struggle.
I know I am a shop foreman for an architectural sheet metal shop in redding,ca. and I have personally been through 7 apprentices in the last four years, just about the time I get a guy to know what is expected of him, he gets let go for the next loser. My boss doesn't let me do any of the interviewing process and repeatedly gets his/ my apprentices from temp agencies (lets face it, if you are at one of those places you don't know how to work otherwise you would be working full time already). Sorry so long just had to say my piece. |
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Jun 11, 2008 - 10:47 PM #7656
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Joined: Mar 10, 2008
Posts: 18
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| may I make a comment, when I started my apprenticeship as a sheetmetal woker, coppersmith , only formal education required was an elementary aptitude and learning of maths, (calculators now suffice) the company I was indentured to employed 30 skilled sheetmetal workers, and 4 skilled welders, after 12 months as a "shop boy" (errands to the local cafe, cleaning machines and dolly boy) (dolly boy is any spare pair of hands that can get inside the ducting to hold a metal block (dolly) for tinman riveting. when this 12 months complete I was put to help and learn from 1 sheetmetal worker for 2 years, after this 2 years at the aqe of 18 I was put on the bench although not paid top rate I was expected to work compentant without supervision and the same speed as a skilled man (ie, bonus and pricework) 2 years is not a long time for any stretch of the imagination and if skills can be passed down in our proffession it will be a very good thing, but my tuppence worth is that all would be trainees MUST have a love for the metal work must come from the heart and NO whinging about sore hands, elbows and fingers, Rowdy yates never complained about wishbones beans only his coffee |
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Jun 12, 2008 - 01:45 AM #7658
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Power User
Joined: Dec 14, 2004
Posts: 199
Location: Illinois
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metalmanmania-
Union apprentices also add pension dollars to the union pension funds. Apprentices typically work over a pension credit year (say, 1700 hours), so a couple of hundred extra benefit hours get added to the funds. Apprentices work more than journeymen because they are cheaper. You will never see an entrance test geared to skip ahead in the apprentice program.
Some union workers are also "required" to provide their own tools and a vehicle for the employer to use. If you don't, you get laid off. This practice is common with residential and small commercial shops in my area. I have experienced it at every residential shop I have worked at, and I have been let go for not "tooling up" at my expense for the benefit of the employer.
I won't even get into banking hours or only having X amount of hours to complete a task (rough a house, set a furnace, set an AC)... so some union shops have a form of piecework.
Companies also abuse personal cell phones. I have had more than one $100.00+ monthly bill from company calls that they refuse to reimburse... then I am the ahole or "not a team player" for not answering.
Union wages and benefits are great if you are working.
Good and bad on both sides of the fence. |
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Jun 12, 2008 - 04:56 AM #7662
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Joined: Apr 09, 2006
Posts: 24
Location: harrison , ohio
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man theres a lot of diferent ways to point the finger here. employers, unions, trade schools, coworkers, parents,high scools, grade scools,its hard to say but the botom line is some people want to work and care about what they do and some people dont.
it always bothers me to see a new guy come to work and get treated like crap by the old guys cause thats how they were treated or the company leaves them sit home 2 or 3 days a week for whatever reson or they shafted at the union hall cause they dont have the same political beliefs.
they are expected to work harder doing all the crap workwile somone tels em they aint no good and aint worth the money wich aint much any way. when they realize they can cut grass or work at a gas station for the same pay.why should they stick it outsome people want to learn and some dont but who wants to come in to this work thinkin their allways going to be treeted that way? it takes a special kind of person to work in trades.aside from self satisfaction it is a thankless life and this world just aint breedin thikskined people these days.
my aproach these days is try to convince the young guys to make metal work an enjoyable hobby and start em young and teach how to make intresting stuff not just duct fitings or roof flashings. we got to be creative about sparking the intrest. |
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Jun 14, 2008 - 03:01 PM #7672
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Joined: Jul 29, 2006
Posts: 1
Location: Mustang Oklahoma
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Hello, I've been a sheet metal craftsman for 23 years .
I started learning the trade my Jr. year of high school, when I was introduced to sheet metal I new this was what I wanted to do.
I was so impressed at what could be built from a flat piece of metal, the wages were not great by any means but I was learning a trade so I did my best and tried to learn everything I could .
Their were some journeymen that did not want you to look at the print or ask questions as to why you were doing things a certain way , but those guys were afraid that someone might be trying to get their job.
their we're a few journeymen that were willing to take the time to teach me the skills that I needed to be a good craftsman.
I have since held the jobs of shop foreman, field foreman and superintendent, so I've seen over the years that most of the kids we would like to have in the trade because they are sharp are also sharp enough to know that they can make more money and set in a air conditioned office to boot with a little more education behind them which leaves the less motivated kids for us to try and make sheet metal workers out of . |
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Jun 15, 2008 - 08:22 AM #7673
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Power User
Joined: Nov 13, 2007
Posts: 128
Location: Omaha, NE
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I think a lot of the points being made are perfectly valid.
In these parts you have the immigrant worker displacing the skilled craftsman. People will pay a nincompoop good money to do something wrong over and over but they shake their knees when they hear the cost of how to do it right. If people would culturally stop looking for the "cheap" and "easy" routes then the whole economy would be more sound. Unfortunately we have a lot of desperate people out there owning homes that are already too expensive for them and they don't always spend their money well. And there are a lot of businesses that run the same way, so its not just homeowners taking the cheap route.
Well, people get only the job out of it for what they pay. |
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Go Huskers!
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Jun 15, 2008 - 01:38 PM #7674
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Power User
Joined: Dec 14, 2004
Posts: 199
Location: Illinois
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MattM wrote:
I think a lot of the points being made are perfectly valid.
In these parts you have the immigrant worker displacing the skilled craftsman. People will pay a nincompoop good money to do something wrong over and over but they shake their knees when they hear the cost of how to do it right. If people would culturally stop looking for the "cheap" and "easy" routes then the whole economy would be more sound. Unfortunately we have a lot of desperate people out there owning homes that are already too expensive for them and they don't always spend their money well. And there are a lot of businesses that run the same way, so its not just homeowners taking the cheap route.
Well, people get only the job out of it for what they pay.
+1 |
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