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Post subject:Skilled Help Shortage
 Posted: Feb 17, 2005 - 01:14 AM #2581
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Webmaster
Joined: May 13, 2003
Posts: 1325
Location: Waukesha
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I recently received an email of a company finding it extremely hard to find qualified help. (I accidentally deleted this particular email) Does your company suffer from lack of skilled help? How do you get over these obstacles?
The Sheet Metal Shop again will post a Community forum, please feel free to use this community forum for searching for help or employment. |
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"If you make your job important it is quite likely to return the favor" Author Unknown
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Feb 17, 2005 - 11:31 PM #2593
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Power User
Joined: Dec 31, 2003
Posts: 289
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| Training! Traning! Training! This is why we have our own class room. The aformention dosn't exsist. After thirty years of searching I gave up looking. As I stated in a post last year here: We are in a industrie that needs 110% demand with only 50% if your lucky to fill it. |
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Feb 17, 2005 - 11:55 PM #2594
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Webmaster
Joined: May 13, 2003
Posts: 1325
Location: Waukesha
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You're right Bob, how can we help you and the rest of the industry in training? If you had three wishes granted on what we could do (Internet based) to help the industry, what would those three wishes be? Even if it meant a new website for techs and it cost nothing but the willingness to become a better tech.
Anyone can get into this discussion... |
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"If you make your job important it is quite likely to return the favor" Author Unknown
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Feb 18, 2005 - 12:28 AM #2595
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Joined: Jun 20, 2004
Posts: 32
Location: michigan
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| A company must hire for attitude. Most techs don't have a willingness to become better, they just keep getting by. At least this has been what I've seen. I don't understand that we can only supply 50% of the demand but wages and billout rates are so low it's difficult to attract newcomers to the trade. Puzzling. I'd sure like to hear more about training our own. |
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Feb 18, 2005 - 01:59 AM #2596
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Joined: Jan 16, 2005
Posts: 15
Location: klamath falls oregon
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people think that they dont have 2 go thru the apprenticeship program. to them theres nothing 2 it, but they're wrong. we have a plasma which cuts down on our shop time. but you still have 2 have the experience of laying out fittings.
anybody can run flex,warm air pipe,and adjustible ells.
MP |
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Feb 19, 2005 - 01:39 PM #2604
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Joined: Oct 31, 2004
Posts: 10
Location: Pensacola, FL
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I am a Master Trainer with the NCCER. I have been on the committess to update and revise the Sheetmetal and HVAC curriculum. All the points made in the above comments are the same thing we hear when we sit around the table at these sessions.
The key seems to be marketing our image differently. Our young people need to know that we are professionals. If you look in the classifieds for a sheet metal position it won't be under professional, but in the skills and trades section. Although we are skilled tradesmen and we get our hands dirty and we are not white collar workers, we are professionals at what we do. We need to start to develop that culture, not only in sheet metal, but in all construction trades.
No matter how sophisticated our machinery becomes in the next twenty years or so the person you can hand a set of blueprints to and have the confidence that the job will be completed on time, within budget and safely will be very much in demand.
Time managment, work ethics and people skills, or soft skills are also vital for the improvement of the our apprentices.
Sorry I went so long. I know this was to be a quick reply, but I had another cup of coffee and got on a roll.
rsonnier |
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Feb 19, 2005 - 01:57 PM #2605
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Webmaster
Joined: May 13, 2003
Posts: 1325
Location: Waukesha
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| Thanks for taking the time to reply, it is appreciated, it is how we can learn. What is NCCER? |
_________________
"If you make your job important it is quite likely to return the favor" Author Unknown
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Feb 19, 2005 - 02:05 PM #2606
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Webmaster
Joined: May 13, 2003
Posts: 1325
Location: Waukesha
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| (Searched and found) NCCER = The National Center for Construction Education and Research. I'll be doing some site seeing. I wasn't aware of this org. |
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"If you make your job important it is quite likely to return the favor" Author Unknown
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Feb 25, 2005 - 01:15 AM #2628
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Joined: Jan 09, 2005
Posts: 26
Location: delaware, usa
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| we have plenty of trouble hiring good help. hiring entry level help gives us the most trouble. seems like most kids today would rather do something else. the ones we do get, often have no ambition. i have been begging the folks i work for to take a more reality based attitude towards training, but so far i have been unsucessful. training with us is done "on the fly" so it is no surprise to me when they are unhappy with the results. i sure would like to find a way to convince them to do this another way. |
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Feb 25, 2005 - 01:59 AM #2632
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Webmaster
Joined: May 13, 2003
Posts: 1325
Location: Waukesha
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Unfortunately there are few places where companies can send their employees for any formal training in sheet metal work, especially if there is no “on the job training” as in an apprenticeship. I’m contemplating offering classes if I could get a local distributor to share classroom space for local contractors to have such a resource for their employees? This would help service technicians, new employees and may be a write off for the company? Design Air a local distributor offers their own service training “Design Air University” Maybe one for sheet metal work would help our industry? I’d be willing to write a course and start out to see if it’s what the industry is looking for.
Our industry is in very rough shape and unless we come up with a solution to attract new men and woman and show them we are as much a professional trade as the one on the computer or taking up business it’s going to get worse. Why are we not in the schools promoting the trade? Why are we not putting together an awareness group and advertising the trade? I don’t see any of that and job fairs are not enough. This is spiraling out of control in many places yet what is anyone doing to make it better! Help me see it, because I don’t see it happening…maybe I should use the entire front page to help promote the sheet metal trade? Are we talking to the Boy Scouts are we working with anyone? I’m willing here, there is nothing that could be more important than this and we have to do something now. |
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"If you make your job important it is quite likely to return the favor" Author Unknown
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Mar 13, 2005 - 02:12 AM #2731
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Joined: Mar 13, 2005
Posts: 2
Location: Tennessee
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Hello all! New member here. Thought Id chime in and give you a couple of pennies worth of what I know about the Sheetmetal business.
In 1994, I got out of it. Low pay and overdemanding bosses burnt me out quick. I decided Id work factory work before I went back into sheetmetal. ALas, last year, I got laid off from a sorry company (a factory job). The only thing I could find was work as a sheetmetal worker. As bad as I didnt want to, I decided to go back into it.
All I can say is YES, there is a shortage in the business, not only from the mechanics standpoint, but from the foremans standpoint. My company is about to explode with jobs coming up this summer and we only have 3 guys who can lead them (me included). We just cant find anyone else.
I think HVAC companies are reaping what they have sewn. For about 40 years, they raped and pillaged the SM worker because there were so many of us. Now that they have scared everybody away from doing SM work, they cant find anyone to do their jobs for them.
But on the bright side, I shouldnt have a problem finding another company to work for should I ever decide to leave this one.
Again, thanks for letting me spout off my opinion. Im glad I found the site and I look forword to talking to you all.  |
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Mar 13, 2005 - 03:37 PM #2737
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Power User
Joined: Dec 31, 2003
Posts: 289
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| Volfan, Well stated! I had two men working on a prodject last year that had come from a shop were the owner would lay them off three days before chrismass and hire them back after New years. Makes you wonder how some people sleep at night. Bob |
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Mar 13, 2005 - 07:20 PM #2738
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Power User
Joined: Dec 14, 2004
Posts: 199
Location: Illinois
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Some of my personal observations about the sheet metal industry...
Drawings are really good or they really suck. I have experienced many more of the suck variety. How can an architect or an engineer place the HVAC, plumbing and sprinkler all on the same centerline? Last job would have worked real well... except for the pesky steel beams. No one did an elevation view. Another job had duct chases that did not allow for the shaft wall thickness, and the shaft space was *just big enough* for the duct. If I performed my job to the same standard as the people creating the drawings I use, I would be out of a job.
Scheduling... or lack thereof. Seems like more and more GC's are throwing all the trades on the job at the same time and making them fight it out. Probably a combination of incentive based pay for the GC and crappy drawings.
Foremans pay... what is that? Employers expect you to stick your neck out and run the job and solve all the problems, but nothing positive in return. When I finally worked at a shop that paid foremans scale, they added so much extra paperwork that it wan't worth it. I would much rather be a good worker than a foreman.
The employees truck is used by the employer. They expect it "because you are going there anyway", yet nothing in return. Trucks and fuel are not cheap.
I have worked for a shop that fired before the holidays, and work picked up again in a couple of weeks. I went elsewhere.
I know servicemen at some shops that are expected to provide all the service tools. One guy had the company truck (with his tools) broken into, and the employer said too bad.
Some employers expect the employee to use their personal cell phone for company business without any type of reimbursement. Apparently, the phones are too expensive for the company to provide, or the boss believes they are not needed and a drive to a pay phone to place a collect call is cheaper...
I had the pleasant experience of working for a shop that expected 9 hours of work for 8 hours of pay. I had to stick it out until something better came along.
I believe the "raping and pillaging" is still happening. I understand that any real employer/employee relationship has some give and take, but I have experienced far more taking than giving.
I have made an honest living in the sheet metal business, and I hope that trend continues. There is also the opportunity to become my own boss if I choose that route. At least the "pluses and minuses" at my current employer are much more balanced.
There are also many employees that believe their wage is an entitlement, and have little comprehension or concern about the money that the boss has to generate to make payroll every week. I have met a few that cycle through shops every few weeks/months, doing nothing, and are proud of it. I understand why a shop can be apprehensive about hiring someone out of the hall.
I think one of the biggest challenges comes from the massive influx of mostly illegal workers working for next to nothing, or worse, employers that hire those workers. I see the changes happening within the drywallers, carpenters, electricians and carpenters. I suppose the same thing is happening to sheet metal workers. Even stranger is the retail pricing of the finished product using such cheap labor has not gone down. I know one builder that uses Polish electricians at $35 an opening versus $120 for a union shop. Pretty hard for anyone to compete on that basis. |
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Jul 21, 2005 - 03:25 AM #3368
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Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 1
Location: oklahoma city
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Jul 21, 2005 - 04:27 AM #3369
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Webmaster
Joined: May 13, 2003
Posts: 1325
Location: Waukesha
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| Welcome to The Shop LumpyOKC:) |
_________________
"If you make your job important it is quite likely to return the favor" Author Unknown
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Jul 21, 2005 - 05:53 AM #3370
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Power User
Joined: Jul 05, 2003
Posts: 170
Location: West side of no man's land
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Hi Guys,
NCCER is what got me going on trying to start a local sheet metal program here where I live.
I tried getting the union down here, but it's too rural a region, and they're not interested. So.... fine. Their loss. None of the rural contractors wanted the union either, but still gripe about unskilled labor, in a skilled trade.
I first heard about the NCCER in 1997 on the last project I worked on before my 1st cancer surgery. They had a full page ad in one the engineering magazines.
In early 1998, when I was back in school, I went to our trade director at the college, and he pointed up at the bookshelves surrounding his office-- over 100 notebook binders-- all NCCER trade training mat'l.
While I was union trained, and am incredibly grateful for it, I never wanted to live in an urban region for the rest of my life. Little did I know the politics of unions. They're too occupied trying to keep work for the urban markets to be bothered with rural, or mountainous regions. Sad too. But many of the contractors themselves were once union shops that left the urban market to go live their lives.
Most of the shops I know of in rural markets will hire unskilled kids-- many right out of high school-- as long as their attitudes are good. This is how much of the non-union shops get their people. They also hire former union mechanics tired of "big city" living.
So, for Urban markets-- Go union. Of course, where I live, more urban contractors are non-union than there are union shops. I've even seen a couple union shops leave the union, and then return becuse they couldn't hire good people without them. For smaller, rural, or suburban markets, get the NCCER training, or get Bud's books, and learn on your own. This is a major commitment either way. But one that is well worth it. While my cancer stopped me from spending the 35 to 40 years I'd expected to work, I got 12 good years, and am real proud to have been a skilled craftsman in the sheet metal trade. Both union, and non-union.
For the smaller, rural markets, I'd go NCCER any day, mingled with the books that Bud has gathered. We don't get good texts like that anymore.
Oh, and for the union I worked my apprenticeshp in, we had to do 10 fittings. I read the other day that some guy in New Mexico bought his journeyman card and only had to layout 2 fittings. While I know this guy worked real hard to get there. That's not a journeyman. The whole idea of being a journeyman is that you know enough to be left along on a job as to not screw it up, and cost the boss more money. To make him money, and walk away knowing that it was done right-- the first time, and no one else will have to follow up behind you to fix what you did.
I'm sure that my apprenticeship was less than that of others'. I do remember being told that the local I once worked in was changing from 4 years to 5. I know this local here where I live is 4 years, 4 nights a week, instead of the 2 nights a week that I did.
This is a great trade, and in need of well-trained people. The more we know the more we're worth. While we may not get better pay, we know more, and have the skill to do more. This has intrinsic value-- that no one can take away from us.
This allows us to "step up" to the plate, and rise to the challenge when it presents itself.
Remember the old adage-- "Opportunity knocks on the doors of doors of all. Only those who are prepared can respond."
Prepare yourselves!
"Quit youselves like men, and rise to the challenge before you."
You'll live better lives, sleep more soundly at night, and as a result find greater, deeper satisfaction as a human being. |
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Jul 21, 2005 - 08:45 PM #3372
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Power User
Joined: Dec 31, 2003
Posts: 289
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| Work Ethic= Integrity Of The Soul. |
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Jul 22, 2005 - 08:54 AM #3379
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Joined: Nov 01, 2004
Posts: 52
Location: Mt Gambier, S.A, Australia
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| Howdy, It seems things are not much better over here in oz, shortages of trained people, and employers that just want to pay minimum and make you work like a dog. Sooner I get my finances sorted and get my own thing running the better. What if it is not a cheeky question is the going rate for a tinbender over there? I have extra training up my sleeve ( not that my current boss is interested in me improving my skill base!) and had to fight with them to actually pay me the minimum award, he claimed he never got the updates. $14 an hour makes it a bit tough with everything else going up all the time. |
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Jul 22, 2005 - 08:55 AM #3380
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Joined: Nov 01, 2004
Posts: 52
Location: Mt Gambier, S.A, Australia
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| Howdy, It seems things are not much better over here in oz, shortages of trained people, and employers that just want to pay minimum and make you work like a dog. Sooner I get my finances sorted and get my own thing running the better. What if it is not a cheeky question is the going rate for a tinbender over there? I have extra training up my sleeve ( not that my current boss is interested in me improving my skill base!) and had to fight with them to actually pay me the minimum award, he claimed he never got the updates. $14 an hour makes it a bit tough with everything else going up all the time. |
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Post subject:RE: Skilled Help Shortage
Posted: Jul 28, 2005 - 08:15 AM #3408
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Joined: Jun 16, 2005
Posts: 26
Location: La Crosse Ks
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Hello,
One thing I see that is a problem is our high schools. My local school is cutting out almost all of it's shop classes, because of budget restraints and lack of intrest from the students. None of these kids get any hands on training in anything any more. They have it beat into them that the only job worth having is a white collar job! Oh don't worry Johnny, everything is computerized now, you don't need to know how to use your hands other than to type!
I'm a drafter by trade, but I've gotten out of the trade because of the lack of jobs that I can qualify for. The problem in the job search is everybody wants you to have an engineering degree to do drafting, and the ones that don't want you to have an engineering degree want to hire you at entry level pay even if you have 5 or more years in high end drafting! Also, the rotten additudes of the engineers that I"m invarably placed under. These guys couldn't design a good rock! God forbid if you suggested that you, a lowly drafter, might have a better way to do something! Even bring in an example of something that might be better and they look at you like you fell off of a UFO!
I'm working on getting my own shop set up. It's going to be a smithery. Blacksmithing, foundry, machine shop, and a tinsmith, mainly geared towards old gas engines, and hand made one of a kinds items. I'm waiting for the bubble to burst, then the guys that can do work, and design using their own head and hands, will be able to make it after the bottom falls out.
Just my $0.02 worth
Richard |
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