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Post subject:wooden gutter lining
 Posted: Jul 02, 2008 - 02:31 AM #7707
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Joined: Jul 02, 2008
Posts: 3
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| I need to reline a wooden gutter on my 117 year old brick house. The gutter was originally lined with tined steel, then covered with tar paper and hot tar and finally had single membrane roofing laid over that. I am removing all that and restoring the wood structure where required. I am planning to reline with aluminum. The lining is 24 inches wide and requires 5 breaks to follow the contour of the gutter. I am looking for any suggestions. What would be the best material thickness for this application? How should the lap joint be handled and how would you cut and fit the miter joints? Their are 14 inside and out side corners, including 4 outside 45's. The perimeter is approximately 220 feet. Any help would be greatly appreciated. |
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Post subject:RE: wooden gutter lining
Posted: Jul 03, 2008 - 12:40 PM #7708
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Power User
Joined: Nov 13, 2007
Posts: 114
Location: Omaha, NE
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| Sounds like a yankee gutter, some of which got pretty fancy since they were designed from wood. Your best bet here is to show some pictures to us. Mitre joints that follow true 90's and 45's really are not all that difficult if you sit down and draw them out. Best to expiriment on scrap if your material is costly. |
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Post subject:RE: wooden gutter lining
Posted: Jul 05, 2008 - 09:27 PM #7714
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Joined: Jul 02, 2008
Posts: 3
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| Attached is a rough sketch of the gutter profile and picture. |
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Post subject:RE: wooden gutter lining
Posted: Jul 07, 2008 - 06:58 AM #7715
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Joined: Nov 13, 2007
Posts: 114
Location: Omaha, NE
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Its a real shame asphalt shingles were ever put on that roof. You should be thinking long term here. If you put in aluminum it is going to be a short term replacement. I can't see doing a job like this with aluminum since it is going to require sealing your laps with caulking. A good replacement system would be copper or steel with the laps soldered. But its all or nothing in this case. You either go all copper or all steel on the roof, never mix and match metals in something like this. That includes your flashing on the roof such as around your chimney. (Which doesn't look all that covered as it is...) It is expensive but averaged out over the lifetime is actually the cheaper route. Replacing the aluminum 2-3 times OR one serious flaw in its construction that ends up flooding your attic is far more expensive.
Your gutter doesn't have much of a face which kind of sucks, too. If you had more space above the crown molding you could use a cleat to hold the front and a leaf to hold the back. Without a good cleat I can't see anything short of .050 aluminum remotely even tough enough to survive wind lift along the front edge. That front leg of your design will lift right up in any serious wind because aluminum is just not stiff enough. I'd say aluminum is definitely not a good choice here. I don't recommend copper with that design for the same reasons. And if you go steel then it better be thicker than your average gutter's 26 gauge, because even that is not rugged enough. Your alternative is to pierce your crown molding with fasteners which is going to look absolutely farm league. Steel is pretty much your only choice and its really a no-brainer a front cleat is necessary in your case. And if you do decide to go with a cleat then anyone that has ever tried to slide aluminum laps together over a cleat knows its not easy because the aluminum pieces dig into each other.
You've got bigger problems with those asphalt shingles. With built in gutter you need to get out of the asphalt shingles and get into tiles, otherwise it really seems like a waste of time and money to reline that old yankee gutter. |
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Post subject:RE: wooden gutter lining
Posted: Jul 07, 2008 - 07:00 AM #7716
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Power User
Joined: Nov 13, 2007
Posts: 114
Location: Omaha, NE
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Its a real shame asphalt shingles were ever put on that roof. You should be thinking long term here. If you put in aluminum it is going to be a short term replacement. I can't see doing a job like this with aluminum since it is going to require sealing your laps with caulking. A good replacement system would be copper or steel with the laps soldered. But its all or nothing in this case. You either go all copper or all steel on the roof, never mix and match metals in something like this. That includes your flashing on the roof such as around your chimney. (Which doesn't look all that covered as it is...) It is expensive but averaged out over the lifetime is actually the cheaper route. Replacing the aluminum 2-3 times OR one serious flaw in its construction that ends up flooding your attic is far more expensive.
Your gutter doesn't have much of a face which kind of sucks, too. If you had more space above the crown molding you could use a cleat to hold the front and a leaf to hold the back. Without a good cleat I can't see anything short of .050 aluminum remotely even tough enough to survive wind lift along the front edge. That front leg of your design will lift right up in any serious wind because aluminum is just not stiff enough. I'd say aluminum is definitely not a good choice here. I don't recommend copper with that design for the same reasons. And if you go steel then it better be thicker than your average gutter's 26 gauge, because even that is not rugged enough. Your alternative is to pierce your crown molding with fasteners which is going to look absolutely farm league. Steel is pretty much your only choice and its really a no-brainer a front cleat is necessary in your case. And if you do decide to go with a cleat then anyone that has ever tried to slide aluminum laps together over a cleat knows its not easy because the aluminum pieces dig into each other.
You've got bigger problems with those asphalt shingles. With built in gutter you need to get out of the asphalt shingles and get into tiles, otherwise it really seems like a waste of time and money to reline that old yankee gutter. |
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Post subject:RE: wooden gutter lining
Posted: Jul 08, 2008 - 04:30 AM #7722
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Power User
Joined: Apr 17, 2004
Posts: 253
Location: Central Ohio
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I've lined probably a mile of built-in gutters over the years, both new and old work. I've got to say that yours is the first gutter I've ever seen framed like that. I can hardly believe that a framing configuration like that is original to the house. I agree with Matt in his assesment of the dificulties found in lining the darn thing, but I wonder whether it would be worth it from a functional standpoint. Seems to me any rain coming down that roof would run right over the front!
Another consideration I've had to deal with in restoration work is that the original linings were often steel so there were no expansion joints. Needing to add expansion joints when relining required re-sloping the liner framing and adding downspouts to place the expansion joint on the high spot.
I don't know if all of this makes much sense to a novice, but given all of these constraints, I believe I would consider re-framing the gutter to allow for a better designed lining.
Sorry to leave it hanging there fellows, but it is getting late and I'm leaving early tomorrow to go sit on an island for three weeks! |
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Steve
Blissfully Ignorant Copperhead
www.copperthings.com
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Post subject:RE: wooden gutter lining
Posted: Jul 15, 2008 - 03:16 AM #7730
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Joined: May 10, 2008
Posts: 3
Location: new jersey
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| I,ve actually come across a gutter situation like this. wish i had a picture. 20 ounce copper was used on the job. Wind is a def issue as well as expansion and nailing is a whole other story as you know on these old houses. Luckily the house we did had great nailing. If a continuous edge strip is used on the crown edge wind wont be a prob as long as there is good nailing. All joints need to be tinned, double folded, then completely sweated with irons. Single folds never last and always pop. Im sure you guys know how fun it is to re sweat old joints. Double folded joints that are tinned and sweated completely will last a lifetime. http://www.copper.org/applications/arch ... ml#DetailA This page has a great example of this situation. It also shows great expansion situations in corners . The only thing i don't agree with is the riveted then soldered joint. Obviously double folding every joint is very time consuming and difficult, but it is a far superior joint that will last. Hope this makes a little sense i use to cut english class and hang out in shop class... |
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Post subject:RE: wooden gutter lining
Posted: Jul 17, 2008 - 12:49 AM #7731
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Power User
Joined: Nov 13, 2007
Posts: 114
Location: Omaha, NE
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| I am not sure what you mean by the double seam. I would rivet every inch on the verticals (its easier to solder) and every inch and a half to two inches on the flats. Copper tends to warp where it is heated and the more often rivets will help you keep the joints tight until the solder. I've only seen one seam come undone over the years using rivets with solder and that was on a poorly fitted mitre. Good mitre cuts are a must. |
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Post subject:RE: wooden gutter lining
Posted: Jul 19, 2008 - 04:02 PM #7734
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Joined: May 10, 2008
Posts: 3
Location: new jersey
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A double folded joint is the same as a single lock flat seam, it just has another fold in the joint. Its different from a single lock where you would slide each panel into one another. This joint needs to be almost done like a standing seam. The metal is turned up at specific heights and then folded twice using hand dollys. Also remember when all edges are pre-tinned, your final solder will heat the whole joint and sweat all surfaces together. I not saying that riveting a joint and soldering it is bad, I just wasnt taught that way. I do know that a double folded joint has been around for hundreds of years, and when done right will last a lifetime.
Do you use irons or an open flame? I use hand irons and never have a prob with warping. Just a couple tacks and the irons at the right heat, you shouldnt have really any amount of warp. Open flame on the other hand warps the hell out copper so i could see where rivets would help. Hado and asco set ups work great too the only thing with them is to heat the iron until your sal ammoniac has a good smoke then turn the flame almost completely off. Use the iron until it cools then turn the flame on again to re heat the iron to correct temp. The open flame to high makes these set ups a nightmare. By turning the flame almost completely off it imitates hand irons heated with coal and shouldnt warp the copper making verticls a breeze. |
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Post subject:RE: wooden gutter lining
Posted: Jul 19, 2008 - 05:45 PM #7735
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Power User
Joined: Nov 13, 2007
Posts: 114
Location: Omaha, NE
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| I have two different types of irons and can use an open flame, but it all depends on the application and the conditions. I wouldn't use an open flame in a lot of circumstances, but it is the easiest solutions when it is available. I prefer the largest iron we have to sweat joints. A tightly held lap requires less solder although it does take more precision to get penetration through the whole lap. All the bad joints I've run across were laps with piled up solder. Thin layers work best. |
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Post subject:RE: wooden gutter lining
Posted: Jul 20, 2008 - 06:35 PM #7736
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Joined: May 10, 2008
Posts: 3
Location: new jersey
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Exactly... i love seeing mountains of solder and people think its a strong joint. Ill go across the same seam at least three times with a hot iron so i know it has a good draw into the seam. Those piles of solder are lucky if they draw a half inch into the seam . Also a lot of guys run into trouble on verticals because they have two sides of there iron tinned. The solder will just run right off it. Its so important to only clean one side of the iron otherwise youll have no control of the lead.
Back to the gutter, You dont think 20 ounce copper would be rigid enough or the front edge? Obviously we dont know how sound the whole structure is ,but he said he was restoring the wood structure where needed. |
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Post subject:RE: wooden gutter lining
Posted: Jul 21, 2008 - 03:04 AM #7737
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Power User
Joined: Nov 13, 2007
Posts: 114
Location: Omaha, NE
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| He can always use a non-clipping cleat with pop rivets to hold the front edge. He could use 16 oz if he was doing that. Problem is with copper he has a lot of work to do on the roof above, too. At today's prices he may faint at the cost. |
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Post subject:RE: wooden gutter lining
Posted: Jul 22, 2008 - 04:09 AM #7738
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Joined: Jul 02, 2008
Posts: 3
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I appreciate all the responses. I had hoped for simple solution. Copper would be the 100 year fix, but besides the cost of the copper, forming, tinning and soldering all those joints 26 feet in the air on ladder jacks with out starting a major fire is beyond my comprehension. The old asphalt shingles are a problem but that is for another day, the shingles were nailed down over the original slate. New slate is what the house needs. Does any one want to by a boat so I can put the money in a roof and proper gutter? The house is a historic district so changing the appearance of the gutter would be very hard to get approved and I would not want to tear off every thing and then hang a gutter on the fascia on the end of the rafters.
The solution I think I am going to try is to install a a roll formed 6 inch .032 gutter to the rafter fascia and then install .032 gutter coil formed to cleat and rivet to the top of gutter, turn down 2 inches then out to end of crown molding with a turn down and drip edge. The outer edge will be held down with screws from the top into the wood understructure. The lap seams will be caulked and riveted. I am going to have a sheet metal shop break the gutter coil to the required shape. Any thoughts on this approach would be appreciated. This a do it myself project for many reasons. |
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Post subject:RE: wooden gutter lining
Posted: Jul 22, 2008 - 03:22 PM #7739
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Power User
Joined: Nov 13, 2007
Posts: 114
Location: Omaha, NE
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| Start applying for those grants they have for historical districts. You have to restore to the original look, but they can make it affordable for the common man. |
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