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Post subject:copper flashing and gutter repairs
 Posted: Dec 21, 2007 - 09:12 PM #7007
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Joined: Dec 21, 2007
Posts: 3
Location: southern california
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Help needed in providing advice to the owner of a 2-story oceanfront home with steep slope slate roofs, including a total of 27 copper dormers (curved tops and vertical sides). Original construction approx. 25 years ago.
The copper dormers and flashings are 16 and 20 oz. material that appears to be in good condition. However, visible/exposed soldered joints (overlap and butt joints, not folded/seamed) at the dormer areas have corroded and some are visibly separated. Similarly, some soldered joints in copper gutterworks have separated.
The Owner of the property has received advice from a contractor that I question. Long story short, the contractor advised that even though the copper sheet goods are in good condition, the only proper repair is to remove and then replace all of the copper with new fabrications. This of course would also entail extensive slate removal... and because of the configuration the bottom line is that the job would include removal and re-installation of the entire roof and copper dormers. Cost would exceed $1/2 Million.
I question the basic premise that he has claimed is the justification... that the visible failed soldered joints cannot be re-sealed or re-soldered in place. From my perspective, the copper should have a lifetime of at least 50 years, where exposed, and longer where concealed. It seem counter-intuitive that soldered joints could not be 'repaired', and should dictate that all the copper be replaced.
Your advice would be greatly appreciated, as to whether the failed soldered joints can be re-worked in place to result in a watertight installation.
hil |
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Post subject:RE: copper flashing and gutter repairs
Posted: Dec 22, 2007 - 07:06 AM #7009
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Pro Tinner
Joined: Nov 13, 2007
Posts: 136
Location: Omaha, NE
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Copper should handle seawater just fine for 30-50 years. Bear in mind, 25 years ago is getting closer to the tail end of the copper then when compared to its heyday. If it was built well then you might get away with some repairwork. Unfortunately the answer is going to probably involve some replacement work, too, just as the previous contractor proposed.
You would be wise to rehang the gutter if the solder joints are breaking. The gutter was either damaged or is defective in some way. What the gutter is probably experiencing is thermal-mechanical weathering effects because it was hung with too much tension for whatever reason. It could be there was no support bracket to bear the weight of heavy water. It might be poor rivet work. It could be the effects of gravity. It could have been hail or branch strikes. It might be something to do with settling of the rafters. But whatever reason it is your copper gutter needs improved support to bear the weight yet allow for expansion and contraction. What will happen is the hot/cold cycles will cause it to swell and contract and the seams get tugged on in all directions; copper is susceptible to stress tearing. I recommend pop rivets every inch and a half at the minimum along the seams before soldering. A good k-style copper gutter will bear stress better than half-round because of the folds in the face; ogee, lip, etc... If they don't have the former and it would work for the customer you might steer them in that direction.
As for the other joints, can you draw or show pictures of what type of seam was done. They may be seams not worth saving. If the owner wants you to try to solder an area first then you might just find by doing so you will build trust with him and he'll be more likely to give you work in the future. Even if the soldering attempt fails to meet the goals, this just might be your foot in the door to a long term series of contracts. |
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Post subject:RE: copper flashing and gutter repairs
Posted: Dec 22, 2007 - 07:47 AM #7010
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Joined: Dec 21, 2007
Posts: 3
Location: southern california
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Matt... thanks for the reply, but allow me to clarify.
For the purpose of this discussion, assume everything was properly constructed initially, and that all sheet goods are in good condition (as noted in the original post).
I am not concerned here with 'why' the solder joints failed.
I am aware of many possible 'reasons' for this.
I am also more interested in the dormers than the gutters, as these are by far more problematic in terms of replacement should that be the only option.
The only issue I am trying to clarify is 'academic'... whether failed solder joints can be re-soldered... or if, as the contractor in question has stated, re-soldering simply does not 'work', and so is not an option.
From your reply, I am not certain if you are saying that re-soldering copperwork is technically feasible... or not.
Thanks again,
hil[/list] |
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Post subject:RE: copper flashing and gutter repairs
Posted: Dec 22, 2007 - 07:58 AM #7011
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Joined: Dec 21, 2007
Posts: 3
Location: southern california
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Matt...
Your comment re lifetime does raise a separate question... for general information...
If uncoated copper only has a 'prime' life of 30 years in a salt air environment, this seems to raise the question of whether this is the best quality material for the job. Would terne or lead-coated copper be better choices for an oceanfront property?
hil |
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Post subject:RE: copper flashing and gutter repairs
Posted: Dec 22, 2007 - 03:06 PM #7012
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Pro Tinner
Joined: Nov 13, 2007
Posts: 136
Location: Omaha, NE
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The feasiblity of resoldering seams has some to do with the content of the solder. I'd recommend cleaning off the older solder on the surface and getting fresh solder to penetrate into the seam. If the original is between a 50/50 to 70/30 mix then its not very difficult. I've seen lead-silver solder on copper that simply did not want to be removed even though its supposed to be easier to use in general. If a good clean and hot tip won't break the solder free then try direct flame using a microtorch. (Don't forget to treat the old solder with your stay clean/cut acid.) Until you try soldering on it you probably won't know. 
I've removed lead coated copper pipe from jobs, but we never use the stuff since I've been there. Can't speak for the previous few generations in the family.
Haven't used terne coated copper, just stainless steel, and it was a product for a paint finish. I'd hope copper would hold up as well if not better as compared to stainless when it comes to the elements, sea water or not. I just don't know the definitive answer on that one.
If you were going to replace the copper I'd be more worried about the type of seams that go into the new one than worry about the material. You did say the material is in good shape, just the original design of the seams are the root of the problem, correct? |
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Post subject:RE: copper flashing and gutter repairs
Posted: Dec 23, 2007 - 01:17 AM #7016
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Tinner
Joined: Dec 27, 2006
Posts: 15
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| Where are the joints, In the valley or is the whole dormer seamed copper not standing seam. If the joints were not hooked together in the first place re-soldering will fail also. All metal roofs and gutters expand and if this was not considered in the design and install it will always crack and fail. With that said it is very difficult to sweat and good joint that is 25 years old. You cant clean out the old solder in the joint only the exposed area. You could re-solder or bridge over the joint if cleaned to a bright finish before you start but if like I said earlier the joint was done incorrectly in the first place it will just fail again probably even faster then the first time. Sometimes you can cut out the joint completely and polish each edge of copper and join a new piece with hook seams and re-solder. that's a lot of work but would be cheaper than 1/2 mil replacement. In my experience very few roofers know how to sweat a solder joint and this leads to roof failure. |
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Post subject:RE: copper flashing and gutter repairs
Posted: Dec 24, 2007 - 08:17 AM #7023
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Pro Tinner
Joined: Nov 13, 2007
Posts: 136
Location: Omaha, NE
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You can sweat old, soft solder through to the point it will suck in new solder if it doesn't have oxidation. Apparently this does not look like a good option where the seams failed. I missed that part in the original post where he said the joints themselves are corroded. I might be wrong, but that is a pretty good indication of ion migration between the copper and solder. Copper should handle the weather if it is installed correctly. But no copper is going to survive ion migration in a harsh climate.
If you do work on this project you might consider hard solder in the places that get the most water and weather to prevent a repeat. It is expensive, but it is cheaper than fixing the roof every twenty five years. The hard solder is closer to the anodic rating of copper and therefore won't corrode nearly as fast. The second drawback is that it takes careful habits to work with since the heat required is so much higher than your soft solder. (You don't want to burn down the house!) The hard solder has silver in it and has a melting point around 700 degrees, whereas the lead-tin soft solder melts between 375 and 450 degrees depending on the mix.
Maybe coppermanandson has some better tips on solder choice. |
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Post subject:RE: copper flashing and gutter repairs
Posted: Dec 24, 2007 - 11:19 AM #7024
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Tinner
Joined: Dec 27, 2006
Posts: 15
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| Not knowing whats under the copper I would stay clear of high heat solders for fear of burning thr place down. I'm against hard solder for roof work for one reason and thats expansion. Hard wont let the coper move as will a 50/50 or similar solder. The best results will be had if the joint is cut out and replaced as I explaned above. That way you are sure to have clean joints to work with. My gut tells me it was poor solder work in the first place and thats why it failed |
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Post subject:RE: copper flashing and gutter repairs
Posted: Dec 25, 2007 - 03:25 AM #7027
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Pro Tinner
Joined: Nov 13, 2007
Posts: 136
Location: Omaha, NE
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| That's an interesting tip. How well does it hold up to the acetylene? |
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Post subject:RE: copper flashing and gutter repairs
Posted: Dec 25, 2007 - 03:47 AM #7029
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Tinner
Joined: Dec 27, 2006
Posts: 15
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| That unit is propane. Made by sievert (Spelling) It works great. It has a self igniter and is lightweight. I use mostly acetylene with a Hado Duplex handle and a 2 pound copper. It holds the heat better for all day soldering on large areas in cold weather. |
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Post subject:RE: copper flashing and gutter repairs
Posted: Dec 29, 2007 - 04:35 PM #7038
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Pro Tinner
Joined: Nov 13, 2007
Posts: 136
Location: Omaha, NE
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| hil, any updates on the proposal? |
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Post subject:RE: copper flashing and gutter repairs
Posted: Jan 05, 2008 - 02:17 AM #7052
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Joined: Jan 04, 2008
Posts: 13
Location: ft.myers, fl.
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| HI, guys I am new to this site, but with out a personal inspection its hard to say . I have had a lot of guys say they can solder , then when i see them in action its not a pretty site. in our shop we have 6 hado duplex soldering irons and use 150 to 200 pounds of 50/50 solder every month. I would have to say I think coppermanandson is right. you could always do some repairs on the seams and check them from time to time . In time if the problem returns you could discount the cost installing new copper. I think the customer would find this to be a great option , and when job comes up to be redone they would remember your honesty! |
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Post subject:repairing solder jouints
Posted: Jan 05, 2008 - 10:28 PM #7058
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Tinner
Joined: Oct 30, 2007
Posts: 26
Location: Nevada County, California
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| Doen't know if I'm correct but were there any expansion joints anywhere? |
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Post subject:RE: copper flashing and gutter repairs
Posted: Jan 11, 2008 - 02:35 AM #7070
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Joined: Jan 11, 2008
Posts: 9
Location: Clayton,NC
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| Any seam that is not visible (such as inside gutters) can easily be patched by cleaning off the patina on either side of the seam with a wire wheel or brush. Use a good flux. I prefer MA stainless personally. Solder a 3" strip of new copper over the old seam. It is possible to clean out the existing joint with a combination of heating the metal and scraping off the old solder and then using the wire wheel and acid but it is time consuming and great care is needed to prevent overheating the metal and possible combustion of wood and/or rosin paper behind the copper. Another method utilizes muratic acid but I would not recommend it because it will continue to "eat" the metal if not rinsed clean 3 or 4 times and runoff may stain lower roofs and gutters. The key is to get the copper as clean and dry as possible. Use 50/50 solder on any copper roofing and gutter application. The higher lead content withstands the expansion and contraction a little better. I've repaired dozens of old seams and its not easy or quick. good luck. |
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Post subject:RE: copper flashing and gutter repairs
Posted: Jan 12, 2008 - 12:21 AM #7077
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Pro Tinner
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 94
Location: Florida
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coppermanandson wrote:
Not knowing whats under the copper I would stay clear of high heat solders for fear of burning thr place down. I'm against hard solder for roof work for one reason and thats expansion. Hard wont let the coper move as will a 50/50 or similar solder. The best results will be had if the joint is cut out and replaced as I explaned above. That way you are sure to have clean joints to work with. My gut tells me it was poor solder work in the first place and thats why it failed
I have that particular Iron and love it. It is comfortable and more importently QUIET! I have also used many other Sieverts over the years, here's my question...how do you keep the tips from degrading beyond the area that you tin and solder with? I am stupid I guess but the tips always seem to waste away. I have tried tinning them completely but still no luck. Prehaps I am tinning incorrectly? We solder 95% stainless steel and a tiny bit of copper. Help! |
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Post subject:RE: copper flashing and gutter repairs
Posted: Jan 14, 2008 - 02:39 AM #7095
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Pro Tinner
Joined: Nov 01, 2006
Posts: 102
Location: McEwen,Tn.
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rothalion........I doubt there's a cure for that...I imagine the fumes from your flux is what's eating your bits..The tinning protects the end of your iron...Just my thots...
another displaced Florida cracker.......bordontn2 |
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Post subject:RE: copper flashing and gutter repairs
Posted: Jan 15, 2008 - 05:27 PM #7105
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Pro Tinner
Joined: Apr 17, 2004
Posts: 270
Location: Central Ohio
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| I was plagued by the same problem with my irons rotting away just above the tinning. I was dipping them in ruby fluid to clean them as I soldered. Someone here told me to try mixing some Salamoniac in water and using that for a dip solution. I did, and no more rotting irons. Now I just keep a chunk of Sal with my dip jars, and shave a bit off into the clean water. Works great. |
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Steve
Blissfully Ignorant Copperhead
www.copperthings.com
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Post subject:RE: copper flashing and gutter repairs
Posted: Jan 19, 2008 - 08:14 PM #7124
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Joined: Jan 11, 2008
Posts: 9
Location: Clayton,NC
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| I have found it as simple as wiping the iron off on my jeans at frequent intervals. The combination of the acid, small particles of dirt, and high heat is what destroys solder heads. Keep an old pair around if you are cocerned about burning yourself, but a quick swipe is all it takes. I also do it before and after contact with a task. You'll find that filing and retinning your irons will need to be done much less frequently. For what it's worth, I prefer the Hado torch type with the solid copper heads to the sievert express torch. I have heads that are well over 15 yrs. old and they can be reshaped to suit multiple tasks on an anvil. I don't even use salamoniac. I tin my irons with flux on a piece of scrap, it works fine and doesn't choke you to death with that noxious smoke. |
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Post subject:RE: copper flashing and gutter repairs
Posted: Jan 21, 2008 - 03:25 AM #7136
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Pro Tinner
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 94
Location: Florida
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Thanks for the info everyone. I know that the fumes burn off behind the tinned area so that may very well explain the more rapid corrosion. I do have Sal on hand and despite hating the fumes it sends out I will try that solution as well. Simply wiping them off on your jeans sounds odd but what the heck I'll try anything. I currently tin my irons with flux usually Ruby fluid on a bit of scrap but still I get tha corrosion. I will try all your suggestions.
Ok... Now then, is is possible to solder half round copper gutter upside down? Say from underneath after it is hung? |
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Post subject:RE: copper flashing and gutter repairs
Posted: Jan 21, 2008 - 06:23 AM #7138
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Pro Tinner
Joined: Nov 13, 2007
Posts: 136
Location: Omaha, NE
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| Since the half round is hung by hangers that hold it out from the fascia and your torch will therefore not be in direct contact with the fascia/eves it is better to solder from the top. I never liked the idea of fighting gravity with hot lead. |
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