Tinsmith Avenue - Russian Church Spire SteveB - Jul 25, 2006 - 04:51 AM Post subject: Russian Church Spire
Hello All.
Yes, for those who remember, it's me. I realized that it's just 5 days short of one year.
I was watching tonight's CBS Evening News-- the National version-- and saw a report on 'Helmets to Hardhats.' This is something to give the returning Vets a hand up for a new life following their time abroad. Of course it made me think of you guys, and so I felt like coming back and say Hi, and perhaps toss a few cents back into the mix.
So, as my subject line states, I'm looking into doing a smaller version of some of those old Russian Church Spires in Moscow.
No, I won't have any gold to place on it, but I will try it in copper.
The spire will be 4 feet in diameter, and 5 feet tall. Here is a link to the one's in Russia.
http://www.russia-in-us.com/Religion/Ch ... penski.jpg
And to the general directory of various church imagery.
http://www.russia-in-us.com/Religion/Ch ... chitec.htm
Scroll down to mid-page.
For those who aren't religiously inclined, this is not to foist a belief upon you, but to just show the architectural beauty of old tin work from days of yore.
Anybody ever done any domes, or spires like this before?
Back from no man's land.
Best,
SteveB.Bud - Jul 25, 2006 - 12:10 PM Post subject:
Great to see you stop back!marky - Jul 25, 2006 - 12:13 PM Post subject:
There is a really good pattern for a spiral finial in the book "The geometry of sheet metal work "by A.Dickason, aw ra best MarkySteveB - Jul 27, 2006 - 02:35 AM Post subject: Spire pattern
Bud,
Do you have a copy of this old text that Mark mentioned, or is it in the library?
I was just going to tinker my way through it, based on what I've seen with other, similarly patterned spires. I.e., Daughterty has a round one, without the point, and I've also been to Jerusalem-- back in 1979, and have looked at modern pictures of the "Dome of the Rock" mosque, to glean ideas from them.
As I develop my thoughts further on this, I'll be drawing it in ACad, and will post my ideas.
Best to all.
SteveB.
off to paint my "new" old shelving.Bud - Jul 27, 2006 - 11:57 AM Post subject:
Hey Steve, I don't have it, but will if I get a copy and can do so. But we do have the orginal copy of The Metal Workers Pattern Book complete in the library? And we do have the 2nd edition of William Neubeckers book full of this sort of layout..did you look at theses?
I have much more to add to the library with in the next couple of months (summer is a bit busy here) Hang in there...
I have the original copy 1929 Standard Practice in Sheet Metal Work..I'll look for you in there tonight.
Taker Easymarky - Jul 27, 2006 - 12:06 PM Post subject:
I will download a copy of these pages asap .sorry dont know how to do a whole book .MarkBud - Jul 27, 2006 - 12:12 PM Post subject:
Thanks!SteveB - Aug 15, 2006 - 06:50 AM Post subject: update on spire drawing
Hi all.
I've been tinkering with this thing in A-Cad, and have come up with the following.
In attempting to make this a 3-d device, CAD does not like my process. For those in the know, I tried extruding it, and it did not work. As a result, I converted the profile to a polyline, and arrayed it, with 100 elements. I'm attaching that, as a pdf.
I do have Solid Works, but in trying that, I get more of a machined looking part. Nice, IF I wanted it machined, but NOT.
As to the reponses, no, I haven't yet looked at any of the referenced books. I'll do that.
Hope all is well with everyone.SteveB - Aug 15, 2006 - 06:51 AM Post subject:
good, it worked.
Night all.
BestSteveB - Aug 16, 2006 - 05:34 AM Post subject: next image
Hi all-- again.
After tossing and turning on my bed last night for a good 20 or 30 minutes, it dawned on me how to pursue this.
Albeit, it's going to be a very tedious manner of doing so.
So, for starters, here is a PDF of the initial starting points.
The image from last night was a mid-start-point, just to get some folks' mouths drooling. I know-- motivation, right?
SteveB.SteveB - Aug 16, 2006 - 05:36 AM Post subject:
ugh... I forgot to state something-- ignore the inch marks that are seen with the dimensions. ALL dimensions are to be in FEET.steve2 - Aug 19, 2006 - 05:58 PM Post subject:
Hello all,
Hey SteveB, aside from the cad issues, how do you plan on covering it. Flat-lock? Standing seam? something else? In my work world, I would get to the project, the dome would already exist and I would begin trying to figure out how to cover it in the field as opposed to shop work. An interesting shape to tackle. I would measure the bottom circumference and divide it into equal parts based on the width of the flat-lock panels I wanted to use. Then I would cut a strip of metal as long as the distance from the top point to the bottom as measured on the surface of the dome. Making the strip lie flat on the surface, I would run it along the curves from the point down to one of my marks at the bottom. Scribe the line along the edge between the two points. Doing the same thing again, but from top to the next adjacent mark at the bottom, I will have two lines running beside one another (but not parallel) from the point at the top to two marks at the bottom. These two lines will describe the width of my panels for each horizontal row I lay out. The horizontal divisions that would establish the height of my panels could all be equal sized slices through the dome, but I would probably goof around with the various widths and make some rows wider than others to accentuate the shape of the thing. But one always has to size the panels so that they keep to the shape they are covering which usually means smaller rather than larger. Once I have my two vertical lines drawn and my horizontals drawn, I have the size and shape of panel that I'll need for each row around the spire. I then just have to add for my seams everywhere and make all of the panels for that row from the same pattern. All that is except the last one which will undoubtably have to be adjusted in width to come out just right. Repeat the process for each row as I work my way to the top. I would also determine where the major viewpoint was and start just off of the opposite side from that so that my bastard panel at the end of each run would end up in the back out of sight.
This would be my original plan of attack, but I can never seem to pass up the opportunity to fool around trying to elaborate things so I could easily end up doing it some other way once I started thinking about it. Ah, the possibilities!!!
Later,Bud - Aug 19, 2006 - 07:32 PM Post subject: Here are one's I've seen
Dome styles from "The Standard Practice in Sheet Metal Work 1929
There are a couple more images here if you want them, I have an original copy of the 1929 "Standard Practice in Sheet Metal Work" They still sell this book for around $300.00..I'm trying to find if it's still copyrighted? It would make a beautiful addition to the library:0
Take care all!SteveB - Aug 21, 2006 - 03:36 AM Post subject:
Steve,
Flat lock would be the connection format.
As Bud has shown immediately above this response.
Trying to do a standing seam is asking for more agony than can be described.
Bud, this book is in fact still copyrighted.
SMACNA decided years ago it was a text well worth its weight in platinum. As such, they renewed the copyrights, and sell it for an ungodly amount of money. Ironically, I do in fact have that text-- it's about 5 feet from my present location, on the bookshelf.
FYI- SMACNA sells the book for 246.00, or 177.00 IF you're a member. I'll leave it you guys to grab the web page for SMACNA. I just typed the title into my choice of search engines, and returned numerous responses.
I vaguely remember paying around $180.00 for my copy about 8 years ago.
My ideas on this, while indeed tedious, are actually coming together. I'm around 1/3 of the way through drawing it.
I'll post an update shortly.
I will however state this.
As I've been considering, and drawing this thing, I've begun wondering if the people who built the one's in Russia built a wood structure first, and then did their layout on the structure. Once they did their layout, they formed the panels on site, with a portable bending device of some configuration. In all honesty, it'd be nice to speak with some Russian tin-benders who've serviced these churches, and find out their practices.
Oh, Steve, one last thing about the flat locks.
My only questions have to do with how they do the final course of panels. I.e., at the beginning, the panel will have the "inner" lock exposed. When the panels come all the way around, the last "row" will also have an "inner" lock exposed. Thus, making me wonder if I'd have to do two "outer" locks, and slip each panel over the two previous ones.
I guess that I'll find out once I get there.
Ok, one more- so I lied, shoot me- I'm doing all of this drawing in CAD to reduce the amount of time that I'd spend actually beuilding this thing. SAdly, it's been long enough, that I'd always be going back to make modifications, as ideas progressed with it.
Have a great week all.
Best,
SteveB.SteveB - Aug 21, 2006 - 03:50 AM Post subject: plan view of spire layout
Hi guys.
I've done a PDF of the plan view of my intended layout format.
Enjoy.steve2 - Aug 21, 2006 - 01:06 PM Post subject:
Yes SteveB, that last panel in each row is the one I refered to as the bastard panel. Not only does it have to be made to fit whatever space is left, the locks are turned differently. I've had to fit those type of panels that grab two uplocks many times. Once you do it you get the hang of it. I ususally turn one side's hems to about 45deg. or a little more and turn the other side just past 90deg. Then I hook the 45deg. side and while pushing toward the unlocked side I use a piece of metal (~2"x6") with a 90deg 3/4" bend in the end as a tool to start the two 90+deg. hems going together at one end. While pushing the panel down and pulling it toward the lock I'm working on, I slide the tool down the lock causing the two hems to lock together. Like using a slip to get something to slide inside of an opening. The panels just click together and then I use a board and a hammer to beat them down. Worst thing a guy can do is to make them too tight. I always add a quarter of an inch to my measurement plus locks. Get them too tight, then you find out the other reason I call them bastard panels! Because they have two down locks they will have a different finish exposed dimension that's why I mentioned starting in the back and ending in the back so that the would be somewhat hidden from view. Not that most people would see the difference anyway.SteveB - Aug 22, 2006 - 01:59 AM Post subject: bastards they are....
Yep. That's what I'd like to avoid. Hence, my drawing it first. It allows me-- technically-- to do pretty much the standard orthographic projection, but then allows me to take it one step farther, and do it in 3d, thus allowing me to see any problems-- before I actually place one finger on the copper.
If you looked at my plan view, it's definitely NOT the standard design.
My next thought on the bastard panel as you call them, is what about moisture leaks? It seems to me that by having to do the exposed hem in this manner, it's just begging for water to pour down the upper edge.
Do you use any bitumen Ice/Water shielding for underlayment, or ...?
Thanks for your ideas. They do indeed help my thought processes.
Best,
SteveB.SteveB - Aug 22, 2006 - 02:08 AM Post subject:
Another thought that's been bugging me, and now I see why.
With the format that the old "Standard Practices in Sheet Metal" -as Bud's shown above-- uses, they appear to maintain a parallel course of panels from base to top. Perhaps that's how they overcome the leak issue I mentioned above.
My idea is to do a helical/spiral radial spread from top to bottom. I hope that makes sense. Hence my plan view submitted above as the pdf.
In my mind, this is what makes it as challenging as it appears to be.marky - Aug 22, 2006 - 12:05 PM Post subject:
Hi Steve i have been having problems with my attatchments [add your own joke] so i have sent the promised drawings to Bud who will hopefully post them for me ,yours ignorant in technology. Marksteve2 - Aug 22, 2006 - 12:37 PM Post subject:
Yes SteveB, the use of "rings" of successive horizontal panels has the top lock of each panel being an uplock that is hooked by the panels in the row applied above it. Same with the spiral application of the diamond panels in the illustration above. I've used that diamond configuation before, and it has the quality of laying nice and flat on curved surfaces.
The bastard panel in my experience cannot be avoided because of the accumulation of small variables in the installed rows of panels. either way you go, after installing a series of panels, not only is the last one going to be somewhat different in size from the others in the row, but different also in size from row to row.
What is going to be the shape of your individual panels? I shudder from fright when I think of curved flat lock seams!Bud - Aug 22, 2006 - 11:53 PM Post subject:
Hey Mark, I didn't get them? Or maybe I did and didn't see them...I'll check my spam folder, it maybe got redirected, I'm not sure why?
If you can send them attachments to me at budgoodmansplinter@wi.rr.com (remove the splinter) I learndt that splinter trick from Glen:) it saves on the spam:)SteveB - Aug 23, 2006 - 10:49 PM Post subject: shape of panels
I'm almost to the point where I can actually answer that, without guessing.
When I get there, I'll make a PDF of it, and we can all laugh at how challenging it'll be.
At this point, I do think they'll be curved, but I can only guess.
Until then.... it's a wait.
MArk- do you have Acrobat to make a PDF of the file?SteveB - Aug 30, 2006 - 05:31 AM Post subject:
Hi Guys.
I'm alsmost done with my drawing. I have gotten far enough to see that it is in fact going to have "curved" edges for the panels. So, forming the flange/hems/seams will definitely be a challenge. Not impossible, but a challenge-- mainly time consuming.
For other news along this line, I have looked up some Russian web sites for metal suppliers in an attempt to locate a metal contractor who would have knowledge of how these are made. The idea was that there must be some body in Russia, or Moscow who actually has to service these things once in while.
I also learned something about the architect who designed the church where this is.
It turns out that Ivan the Terrible had it commissioned, and then blinded the architect to prevent another one of them, of comparable beauty, from being made. Talking about a one time custom job. Sure glad I never worked for Ivan! Of course, with technology that existed back then-- 1500's, it may have been a good 10 to 20 year project.
Best.SteveB - Sep 09, 2006 - 05:09 AM Post subject: update on spire drawing
Hey all.
It's still moving forward-- ever so slowly, but steady progress is being made.
To the "other" Steve-- the panels are in fact "rounded."
Thus far, I've only done 5 of the 7 panels.
I'll get some updated attachments soon.SteveB - Sep 09, 2006 - 07:46 PM Post subject: Images of drawings
Hi all.
Ok, here are a number of images. Individuals so they can actually be seen, and understood. It should be noted that I'm one panel short of the complete set.
This should open up the question part. Ask away.SteveB - Sep 09, 2006 - 07:58 PM Post subject: second run of images-- the rest of them.
Ok, I didn't know that I couldn't post all 7 of them.
I guess that's what I get for not reading the rules.
This is the last of the set-- for now.bordontn - Sep 11, 2006 - 05:25 PM Post subject:
S teve have you been here?http://www.copper.org/applications/architecture/arch_dhb/domes_spires_vaults/dome_diagonal_flat_seam.html
bordontnSteveB - Sep 12, 2006 - 05:17 AM Post subject:
Bordontn,
I have now!
Thanks for the link.
While there are differences, it appears to be what I was wanting to do.
I did download the cad files, and will review them in detail.
The profile of the gutter they're using would require a multipiece layout, and lots of soldering. However, I've actually done gutter like this before.
Thanks.
I'm now formally done with my drawing. I'll upload the last two files tomorrow afternoon when I get home from work.
Thanks guys.SteveB - Sep 13, 2006 - 03:11 AM Post subject: last of the panels.
Hi all.
Here are the last of the panels.
The one that Bordontn showed me-- copper.org/-- is better than the one I've drawn up. Mostly because if deals with the cap/ top portion of the spire in a different manner that mine.
It also has many more panels than mine, and deals with the "curvature" of the panels better. This is critical when making panels up. Trying to form the flat seams with a roll-former/easy-edger is far more time-consuming, and tedious than being able to brake them up with a drive/B&P brake.
However, this was to be mostly a foray into a realm that I'd not had the pleasure of doing while working, and had wanted to dating back to my apprenticeship. So, my thoughts on it were due to the images from the Russian, and other webpages not being real clear, or even detailed. They also were borne of generalized ideas of how they would go together IF they were idealized-- sadly, a product of my physics studies.
The initial problems that I see with my design is that forming the panels would be tedious, as a result of their being well over 1 foot in length, and have curved edges-- on all four sides. This would mean that 140 panels-- 7 panels per "gore" and 20 gores-- would need to be run through an easy edger, or other wheel roll-former, and then rolled in the slip-rolls to obtain the round/spherical shape of the design.
Hence the reason for drawing it first. It may have taken me some 30 odd hours of drawing it, but it was still less expensive than trying to do it with metal first, and realizing halfway through that it wasn't going to work.steve2 - Sep 13, 2006 - 12:17 PM Post subject:
Well SteveB at least you pulled up before your head exploded! It was an interesting idea, allthough I thought all along that hemming the curved edges would be a tremendous pain in the posterior, it was the two-directional curving of individual panels that broke the camel's back. I have never been able to get that together without the use of more elaborate equipment. I have always had to design my way aroung such things. Those square shaped panels lend themselves nicely to curving both ways as you apply them. By elongating the vertical axis, they can be made as diamonds which also form well to the shape and have a look I seem to recall seeing on an onion or two. Oh well it's been a fun ride SteveB thanks for the gas.SteveB - Sep 14, 2006 - 04:57 AM Post subject:
Hey Steve2,
Actually my head has gotten so far past exploding that it was fun to take a break from my other stuff.
Exploding heads is for studying physics-- which I amazingly made it through. That's when my head really began hurting.
My next idea will be to review the package that bordontn showed me off of the copper.org site.
While my idea was more challenging on the fabrication side, I think the correct way will be more challenging on the layout side. I.e., far too many panels. I didn't count but it looked like there were around 30 to 40 panels per gore, and at least 50 or so gores.
Of course, I'd think that as long as one had an apprentice on hand to sink screws on the clips, installing it would go fairly quickly.
With the one's you've done, what'd you face at the peaks?
Best,
SteveB.steve2 - Sep 14, 2006 - 12:23 PM Post subject:
SteveB,
I was just this morning looking at an article about St. Basil's in Red Square on the Wikipedia site http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Basil%27s_Cathedral when I realized that these were the domes you had been talking about! Duh! Anyway, they had some nice pics showing the many different roofs. One of them is indeed patterned like the CDA.org dome that bordontn submitted. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... loseup.jpg
What interests me at this point is how they incorporated reposse shapes into the center of the panels on some of these domes. It also looks as though they used large spiral gores that were then bulged out to give the big 3d shape. Some of the shapes looked like theyy might have been added to the panels before or perhaps after the panels were attached to the roof. Way far out!
When you originally proposed this onion, I had thought of cutting gore pieces that ran straight up the roof from bottom to top and then covering the seams along the sides with elaborate battens. Anyway you look at it there is a lot of bench work on the sand bag. It sure would be fun to do though.
As far as the top is concerned, when one gets to a place where the panels get too small or the scale dictates, it is time for a finial of some design.Bud - Sep 14, 2006 - 11:26 PM Post subject:
SteveB, I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to try to reducs the size of the images...these are huge...and all the rest of the great read is strretched out and it forces us to scroll to read...ok with you?
Thanks
BudSteveB - Sep 15, 2006 - 12:57 AM Post subject: Please do....
Hey Bud.
Yes, please, by all means shrink those bad puppies!
In fact, while it'd be nice to have them say, thumbnail sized, it'd be even better to make them as attachments instead so that folks can look IF they want, and if not, no worries. After I uploaded them, I realized just how huge they were, and that was NOT my intention.
Thanks for pointing that out.Bud - Sep 15, 2006 - 01:02 AM Post subject:
No problem, I appreciate all you do!SteveB - Sep 15, 2006 - 01:13 AM Post subject:
Steve2,
I agree on the finial statement.
After I'd made my comments last night about the CDA dome, I went back and looked at it more closely, thinking initiallythat it had the spike on top. CDA's does not.
It got me to thinking how then they'd do the spike, and my initial thoughts were towards the finial.
However, having a finial seems like it'd take away from the initial design that the Russians have.
Needless to say that I have been trying to contact some contractors, suppliers in Moscow, and so far no response.
Neither Yahoo, nor Google really have much in the way of Russian businesses in their search database.
Back to the drawing board in my search, and drawing this spire.
Oh, last week I did find a decent image of the one spire that has the 3d shape of interest to me. It is in fact completely different that I'd originally believed, and so my ideas will need to be modified.
Ok, for discussion's sake, I looked at the wikipedia site, and the dome of interest to me is the green and yellow one on the left of the first image they show.
However, what I did notice about theirs is that instead of continuing to spiral around at the top, once it reaches the inside radius, it stops the spiral, and goes almost straight up. This actually surprised me. I did not expect that, and have begun wondering a few things.
1- is this a wood, foam, fiberglass, or other, non-metallic structure? It'd sure make fabrication, and installation/mounting so much easier.
2- If it is metal, the amount of benchwork involved in their's surpasses what we'd have done by a magnitude of 2 or 3. Hence my desire to pursue this. I.e., they can't be the only ones having all of the "fun."
One image that I saw last week showed scaffolding, and wind-break cloth covering the green-yellow spire. If I remember correctly it was in 2002. I.e., one stock photographer had taken numeous photos of the area, and one just happened to show the scaffolding, and cloth. This means that it was "serviced" recently. This means that someone had to be the one's repairing it. This brings up to me the question of: Were they from Russia, or from Europe? Did they do any metal work, or was it just painting, or....?
Plenty of questions, and not enough answers-- YET!
I will however keep you guys apprised, and if by some strange chance anyone has gone to Moscow, and was curious about these spires-- enough to ask questions about them, please let us know.
I do know a couple of Russians locally, I'll ask them- now that I'm thinking about it.
Best to all.
SBSteveB - Sep 27, 2006 - 02:35 AM Post subject: latest update
Hi guys.
I'm back from vacation now, and back at my tinkerings.
After long consideration and a time away from this, it appears that this design will indeed require a finial at a specific point to finish off the onion dome.
One thing that I did stumble across before my last post was a site where the guy actually does these with fiberglass, and various choice of colors, giving an incredibly beautiful finish. (this is not an endorsement, it's just for sh** and giggles-- http://hometown.aol.com/heavenscupola/index.html)
I'll use the CDA form that Bordontn submitted, and instead of capping it off with a low-height, round china-cap, I'll take it up an inner radius, and then finish it off with a finial cap-- i.e., a really tall china-cap. Something akin to a wizard's hat.
Sadly, the designs of the St. Basil's Cathedral would make this far too challenging a project-- the 3d parts that stand off of the base dome. By all appearances, these would only be able to be built, with metal, by triangulation. I may be ballsy, but my patience is still not that good. In fact, looking at all the available images I wonder if these are actually wood gores, and not metal. It'd be far easier to do them with wood than metal.
For those intrigued, I strongly encourage you to check them out.
The design of interest to me in reproducing is the large one on the left-- green and yellow.
http://www.pbase.com/bmcmorrow/image/46566535
Best to all.
SteveB.[/u]steve2 - Sep 27, 2006 - 01:35 PM Post subject:
Welcome back SteveB.
Here's hoping you had a good time. Now get to work! (just kidding) You know, I think you could do a dome like the green and red one in the picture using the CDA spec. by leaving the locks somewhat open on the installed panels to give some relief to the edges. I'm not exactly sure how the increase then decrease in the size of the individual diamond panels is determined though. Could it be as simple as just a random determination by the tinknocker? Obviously it is a proportional increase/decrease, but what determines the amount? Once determined though, it would be easy for those of us with modern tech to just photo copy the panel pattern for each succeeding row and increase or decrease the copy by a given percentage, would it not? Oh well, just some random thoughts...
Mark