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Stickman - Feb 11, 2006 - 01:43 PM
Post subject: Pexto setting down 561 question ?

Quote:

I missed out on winning a set down tool (pexto) on ebay this evening. Anyone have an extra one they would want to sell? Also looking for turning dies for pexto machines as well.

_________________
Pricer
Many Minds, Many Hands, Many Solutions
www.thecurbshop.com

Pricer, I thought I would let you know I have been playing around with trying to make a basic endcap by turning a small bur on the collar and then the same on the lid part with a little progress BUT, still a long way to go. I wanted to just let you know I looked at the machine that is on ebay you bid on. That is what I would call a old vintage version of the setting down machine. I don't think you will like that....my 2 cents but I am all ears if anyone can give me some tips on mastering this 561 I have. It took me 3 yrs of watching ebay and 300.00 to get this one...but it was restored very nice by the seller and is in excellent shape. Unfortunatley it never came with instructions... Laughing

I have attached a picture I found of the 561 and its purpose, but thats about it. I can form a 1/8 edge on the collar part fine using a small bur machine. I then try to form a 3/16 edge on the lid part using the small burring machine. Where I run into problems is how to get the flange over 90 on the lid part as shown in the picture diagram ?? I have tried peening it over but this seems time consuming and crude results. Maybe there is a step to do using the 561 that brings the flange over....like I said: any one with any ideas ? I understand that most of these roll forming machines take a lot of practice to getting them to do what you want !!

Bud - Feb 11, 2006 - 02:15 PM
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Stickman,

I'm almost sure the book I just loaned to pricer has this information in it.

I could head down to Alabama and take a look for you:)

I'll post a picture a bit later on my setting down machine. You think you have it rough:)

Bud

Bud - Feb 11, 2006 - 02:16 PM
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In fact I have no problem letting him send it off to you if so and then you can send it back to me when you're through with it...

Stickman - Feb 11, 2006 - 03:06 PM
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Thanks Bud, that would be great. I have some Pexto catalogs that lists all their tools from the 80's.......I always liked how they never really give you any clues as how to run them Laughing

Bud - Feb 11, 2006 - 03:15 PM
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Did you see this in the library on the setting down machine?

http://www.thesheetmetalshop.com/pdf_ma ... _sectN.pdf

It's pretty interesting and there are plenty of lessons here as well.

Stickman - Feb 11, 2006 - 03:30 PM
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This is exactly what I was looking for Bud ! I looked in the library but evidently not good enough. I just printed this info up and am anxious to play with it some more. Let's see...where is my tie and apron Laughing

Bud - Feb 11, 2006 - 03:32 PM
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Good for you! Let us see the results! It wasn't printable until two minutes ago? Maybe I'll put them on the CD Smile

Stickman - Feb 11, 2006 - 09:50 PM
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Ok Bud, you talked me into it. After 2 hrs. of playing around I did manage to fab a little can. I can tell you this.....I won't be making my own endcaps just quite yet ! Laughing

But this isn't what I wanted this for anyway. Every now and then someone wants something pretty made and I need the tools and experience to do it. This can is around 6" Dia. and after trial and error I found cutting the cap 6.75" was just right. The burring of the canister was no problem....but the lid is a different story. I can form the flange to a 90 but beyond that it really gets warped out ?? I cheated and just peened over the lid most of the way and then used the 561 to make it look smooth. I think I am going to try to make a video of each step and have it available for viewing on my web site. I will keep you posted. I also used my 544-A machine to do the burring. turning, and wire edging....which I have done this before. I am still wondering how they expected you to turn the lid flange over 90 and then snap the can part in ?? Any way here are some pics.

Bud - Feb 11, 2006 - 10:09 PM
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Nice and I bet you could sell the videos, heck to me too? If and when you do, I'll give you a plug here at the shop! Thanks Stickman!

Bud - Feb 11, 2006 - 10:09 PM
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Hey, nice instructions in the backround:)

Bud - Feb 11, 2006 - 10:14 PM
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I also see you have a ring cutter or circle shear. I too have one and it's one sweet machine. It was sitting in the back of Gladwin and I picked it up for $50.00. I'll have to post a picture of my setting down machine..you're going to likr this one:)

pricer - Feb 12, 2006 - 12:47 AM
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Nice work! I missed a set down machine today but I am still looking. I would like to find one as well as a double setdown machine and turning ang wire dies for my 622. Are the triple bead dies still available? I haven't seen any yet. They are described in the book Bud has loaned out to me. Good book for tool useage instruction.

Stickman - Feb 12, 2006 - 02:12 AM
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Quote:

I would like to find one as well as a double setdown machine and turning ang wire dies for my 622. Are the triple bead dies still available?

Good luck on finding that 644.....they are about extinct I think Sad

Gladwin has one listed on their used machinery. But no one can ever seem to locate where it is?? The 622 turning rolls and wiring rolls you can still buy new and will fit also the 544-A machine. Now as far as the triple bead......then you have to get back to the early days and find a old 622 like Peck Stow Wilcox unit as these rolls will not fit a newer 622. I have seen them once in awile on Ebay but rolls only.....I think they have a 7/8 bore and the 622 has a 15/16 shaft. So Pricer.....does Bud's book give you any tips on forming the lid flange ?? I will let you know when I see one of those machines again in case you miss it.

pricer - Feb 12, 2006 - 02:53 AM
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Bud's book is very helpful when it comes to describing how to use the machines. It even covers elbow edging. It is a good book. As Bud had said earlier, I could mail you the book if you like? Let me know. The book covers just about all the equipment you would typically use in your shop.

There are a couple of turning machines on ebay that I am watching now. I have an old 622, there is a post here with pictures. Will the triple bead die fit this machine you think? I still need to measure the shaft size but I want to say they are 7/8".

I now have three rotary tools. One is for elbow edging, burring and the 622. I am bidding on another 622 currently that appears to have many dies. We will see how it works out. I did win a Johnson Soldering Furnace and a few other items pertaining to soldering. An old coal furnaces and another cast iron furnace. Thanks for looking out for me.

The can you pictured looks very nice! Can't wait to be able to build one of my own. Does anyone have a double set down machine?

Stickman - Feb 12, 2006 - 09:01 PM
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Did I forget to mention I have 30,000 digital pictures on my pc.. Razz

I had to make another can out of copper to see how the set down worked. Again, its the lid flange that really takes some technique ! I went through 30+ lids this weekend trying to get that flange over 90 and still having to peen it over by hand. This works, but I think it was suppose to be a little easier than it is. My wife asked me what it was for....my reply: I brand new shop ornamnent. Laughing

Bud - Feb 12, 2006 - 09:09 PM
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You're a true craftsman! I'm truly jelous..I have to give up this website development so I can get back in the shop:(I often wonder if I can find it anymore) but as long as everyone is enjoying thier and learning here, I'm fine:) Hosting this iste has been a real pleasure? [many thanks to our Sponsors]

pricer - Feb 12, 2006 - 09:12 PM
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How much for one of those copper cans? Nice Work!

bordontn - Feb 12, 2006 - 09:56 PM
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burring the cylinder: if it's straight you can turn your burr in a brake or bar-folder before forming..
I seam my bottom with a small hammer a little at the time at the edge of the bench.Then with bottom
up, hold over the angled edge of beakhorn stake. finish with rawhide or wooden mallet. With that done ,slide overconductor stake and fold over double seaming your piece..
bordontn

bordontn - Feb 12, 2006 - 10:01 PM
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sorry guys the wrong drawing...I.m so embarressed Too many drawings called "seams"
bordontn

bordontn - Feb 13, 2006 - 12:06 AM
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stickman .......according to some very old instructions ..to burr that bottom you adjust the rolls to put a slight impression
in your work the first pass..as you turn the crank, lift slightly on the piece making several passes lifting slightly each pass until
you are just past 90 degrees.
bordontn

Stickman - Feb 13, 2006 - 03:09 AM
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Thanks bordontn for the tips....I will keep trying this. I have had best luck with the 26 ga. galv. The copper was so soft that the flange tended to buckle very easy. Next time I'll try some 24 ga. I also notice its very important on the depth your gauge and to keep the stock running against it as you roll. Does anyone know the gap distance that the top die should be out from the lower die. Mine is set to about the same thickness as the metal I am working with. Just to clarify.....this setting is where you would use the knurled knob on the upper shaft....to move it inboard or outboard.

pricer - Feb 21, 2006 - 01:56 AM
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I found a set of dies for my 622 from a member at another board. I should be getting them soon I hope. Can anyone explain the fluting die? Does it make the impressions like the vertical beads in stickman's copper can? I also will be getting the triple bead along with other single and ogee beads. I am going to give them a try and I am sure I will have some questions. How many passes does it take for the triple beads?

I got the keys to my new shop today and I am looking forward to moving forward. In the shop there are two Pexto tools, one is a 544-a and the other is a heavy duty machine, not sure of the number but it has crimp dies in it and it turns very slow, maybe 20 guge capacity?? Not sure. The 544 has all of what I call the basic dies, burr and turning ect...

I should be up and running in the new shop on Monday and I am really looking forward to it.

Stickman - Feb 21, 2006 - 02:19 AM
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Quote:

How many passes does it take for the triple beads?

I am going to say 3 or 4 passes on my pexto 620. I am curious to see your new rolls Pricer....is the triple roll cutom made for your 622? I have never seen any that fit a 622 is why I ask. Those verticle bends in my copper can were made on my 622 with the std. crimping rolls with the std. bead roll on the edges. I have a lone triple bead die that I wish I could find a mate for. It is the smaller version of the triple bead. Good luck on your new shop....please post some pictures Razz

Bud - Feb 21, 2006 - 02:33 AM
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Hey pricer, good for you! Tell us a bit about your new shop. Are you leasing it or did you get to team up with someone? I have no doubt you'll do great what ever the case. More people should share your ambitions!

Thanks for all you do to help keep this shop tip top:)

pricer - Feb 21, 2006 - 03:20 AM
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Stickman,

I am assuming that these dies will fit the 622. If I remember right, there is something special about the triple bead. I think I was told that the center bead was a bit longer than the other two. I was told they would fit the 622 but we will see. I do not know a lot about all of these rotary tools but I am looking forward to learning much more. My wonderful wife would love a set of those copper pots around the house.

We will see what tomorrow holds.

Bud,

I did lease an equipped curb manufacturing facility. It is truly a blessing and more than I could have hoped for this early in the game. The facility is filled with equipment of all sorts that will help set a good pace for manufacturing roof curbs of many types to meet ever increasing and expedient lead times. I am so looking forward to getting in there next week and making the place my new home, TCS LLC.

I have had an interesting conversation and I think the future looks very brite. I really look forward to setting some firm roots in roof curb manufacturing and to find my place in this competative market. Thanks for all of your support over the past few years, it has really meant a lot.

Thanks Bud.....

danski0224 - Feb 23, 2006 - 01:07 AM
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There is someone on eBay making new rolls to fit the Pexto machines.

Stickman - Feb 23, 2006 - 01:28 AM
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Yes, I contacted that guy and asked if he could make me a 1/2" bead set. He told me for right now they are just making the stepping rolls. Sad

bordontn - Feb 23, 2006 - 01:44 AM
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Stickman...PEXTO TIP No.8 The edge on the bottom is turned smaller
than on the body..From the library..."Light Bench Wiring Turning Burring
And Setting Down Machines" You said you turned 1/8" on body and 3/16"
on bottom??
bordontn

Stickman - Feb 23, 2006 - 03:11 AM
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You're right Bordontn.....I did read that and have since changed the process.....actually I have tried turning a edge on the bottom lid at several different sizes to see what worked the best. Too big of a flange will buckle to much, once you get paste 90. I still like to roll the flange to 90 and hammer it over just enough to pinch in the barrell....then let the set down former finish it. As they say: practice makes perfect Laughing

danski0224 - Feb 23, 2006 - 10:59 AM
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Stickman wrote:

Yes, I contacted that guy and asked if he could make me a 1/2" bead set. He told me for right now they are just making the stepping rolls. Sad

Several profiles, including the triple beads, were offered a little while ago- I remember seeing the auction.

Maybe someone from Roper Whitney gave them a cease and desist order....

Maybe I should have bought them at that time. I assumed they would be available later.

pricer - Feb 28, 2006 - 04:07 AM
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[quote="Stickman"][quote]How many passes does it take for the triple beads?
[/quote]

I am going to say 3 or 4 passes on my pexto 620. I am curious to see your new rolls Pricer....is the triple roll cutom made for your 622? I have never seen any that fit a 622 is why I ask. Those verticle bends in my copper can were made on my 622 with the std. crimping rolls with the std. bead roll on the edges. I have a lone triple bead die that I wish I could find a mate for. It is the smaller version of the triple bead. Good luck on your new shop....please post some pictures :P[/quote]

Stick Man,

The triple bead dies have arrived and they fit the 622 perfectly. The center bead is about twice as big as the two outer ones with the center being somewhere about .3125" round. They are in great shape and they work well. I haven't had the time to try the others. I will post a picture of them when things slow down a bit.

In other new, I Built my first TCS adapter curb today. Kind of exciting for me :D :D as well as a bit challenging without all of the modern technology I had grown a custom to. I am just about over that hump and I am really beginning to become more productive on the bench again. Feels Good! You know what I mean........... :lol:

fogcrawler - Apr 03, 2008 - 05:45 AM
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Stickman!!!...
Master!!!...
What I'm seeing, you're the guy that can answer my questions!!!
I want to get my hands on some of these old Pexto machines so I can learn how to do wired edge and set down seams...
I'm going nuts looking at all the machines on ebay and so far I haven't seen one with what I belive is the right die rollers for what I want to do.
Do the newer dies like from a 722 model fit the older models???
How long did it take you to find that set down machine???

I'd like to just hang out in your shop and follow you around like a puppy dog would... Your stuff is the epitome of what I'd like to be doing on my weekends!!!
I'd like to make an ash bucket for starters to use with my cast iron dutch oven cooking and then maybe do some custom wired edge fenders for a teardrop trailer I'm building.

Stickman - Apr 03, 2008 - 01:21 PM
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Quote:

Do the newer dies like from a 722 model fit the older models???
How long did it take you to find that set down machine???

Some of the dies from the 622 will fit the 544. Most of the older formers had different bores etc. I prefer the Pexto 544 for doing the edges, although you can also do these on the 622. Ah heck...you need them all really Smile

If you can get hold of a 622 and a 544 with all the dies you are set. Those Setdown formers are on Ebay off and on....keep looking, and hopefully you will find one. The 561 is 24 ga and lighter rated and the 562 is 20 ga. and lighter. Good luck on your new venture too !!

fogcrawler - Apr 03, 2008 - 02:26 PM
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Thanks Stickman,
I kinda figured you'd need them all.
The one thing I miss about being self employed, is tapping into the cash flow when stuff like this comes up.
There's several of the old ones at work that I have access to, but no setting down machine and I'm not seeing the dies for the wired edge to close the metal around the wire, but my shop foreman says we have the stuff to do wired edging.
Hopefully, they may have other machines elsewhere that I'm not privy to as of yet.
It's a cryin' shame that labor cost has turned much of the old tools into dinasours... But I guess, that just adds extra insentive to find them, eh?
I'll keep my eyes open and figure out a way to get some mad money to play with, now that I'm no longer self employed.
In the meantime I'll be drooling over your awesome work and will be experimenting with what we have at the shop.