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Sheet Metal Automobile - From Forming to Shaping, The New Learning Curve.

pricer - Jul 20, 2004 - 02:32 AM
Post subject: From Forming to Shaping, The New Learning Curve.

Metal Shaping is an entirely different world. I have a project building a rear quarter panel for a 49 Desoto. I was truly flattered that someone thought enough of me to do such a project. The tools for metal shaping are different from the ones we use in our trade. I have acquired a small anvil and I have just returned from getting two canvas and leather shot bags sewn up. I am looking for mallets and the like but still haven’t purchased any. Some of the tools required for such a venture can be homemade. The hardwood slapper for example, it is generally made from oak or hickory and ids used like a hammer. They are about 14” in length and shaped similar to a shoe. It is used in conjunction with the shot bag to form large curved panels and some slappers are covered with leather on their face to protect the surface of the metal.

One of the first things I have learned about reproduction pattern making involves lots of tape. To better explain this, I have a left side quarter panel and need to build the right. I was instructed to use a special sheet that sticks like tape to cover the entire surface of the panel I have. Once the surface is covered with this sheet, I went over the surface again using packing tape to reinforce the first layer. I ran the second layer of tape in a more diagonal pattern than the first. In the morning, hopefully, if there isn’t very much duct to build, I will trim the edges of the tape pattern and remove it from the panel. Once the pattern is removed I am suppose to cover the sticky side of the tape with some type of powder like baby powder to take away the sticky aspects of the pattern.

From there the pattern is reversed and transferred to new metal. I am not sure if I will try to build the new panel in one piece or not. I will decide in the morning. The wheel well trim is a bit tricky. I have built a duplicate wheel well section in order to learn more before making the finished product. It was a bit tricky shrinking and stretching, may be hard to do with all that extra material. I will take pictures as the panel takes shape. More tomorrow.

randyt - Jul 20, 2004 - 11:00 AM
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You sure get yourself into some interesting projects. Have you checked into a english wheel for stretching and shrinking?

pricer - Jul 20, 2004 - 11:32 AM
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randyt wrote:

You sure get yourself into some interesting projects. Have you checked into a english wheel for stretching and shrinking?

I have been reading and dreaming of one. I have a set of shrinker/ stretchers, theyseem to work well. They are good for edges, it has a 1" depth capacity. That is what I used to fab up the mock wheel well. The boss has talked about an e-wheel and said he was going to look at them when he goes the the big hot rod meet next week. Yes, I do get myself into all types of strange and intresting projects, most well over my head. I like doing trial and error work, something I have to figure out. Things like this are what my foundation in sheet metal work were built on. Thank God for people like yourself and this site, It has helped me out in more ways than one. lol I look forward to many more years of sharing and learning here. Like I always say, "Many Minds, Many Hands, Many Solutions!" Thanks to all that have helped along the way.

marky - Jul 20, 2004 - 02:56 PM
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In the library sectionin the book a treasise on sheetmetal patterns,practical problems[part 1 ],problem 8 on page 64 may help you to develop your pattern,this problem is how to develop the pattern for a steel clad bath.aw ra best Marky

pricer - Jul 21, 2004 - 03:40 AM
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marky wrote:

In the library sectionin the book a treasise on sheetmetal patterns,practical problems[part 1 ],problem 8 on page 64 may help you to develop your pattern,this problem is how to develop the pattern for a steel clad bath.aw ra best Marky

Thanks for the info Marky. Did not get to work on the car project much today. Taking off plans and and misc. fittings. I did remove the tape pattern today, didn't work like I thought, but everything looks good. I used baking soda to cover the sticky side and got them layed out on the new steel. May be more work on it tomorow.

pricer - Jul 24, 2004 - 11:43 PM
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Hello Everyone,

Metal Shaping is requires a new bag of tricks. I have been pounding on 16 gage all day and it really takes its toll on the arm, yes I know, I should have used a hammer. Very Happy

The following pictures are of the panel I started forming this morning and a homemade shot bag that weights in a 180 pounds. The panel is in a roughed in form and more shaping is required. I will make some hardwood slappers that will let me pound the right curvature into the panel. Then its off to panishing and welding. I hope to be done with it by Tuesday night. Tell me what you think, and if there are any questions, I will help as much as I can, still learning myself. Shocked

Thanks,

pricer - Jul 24, 2004 - 11:51 PM
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Here is the picture of the homemade shot bag, 180 pound, its a whopper!

pricer - Jul 27, 2004 - 04:16 AM
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Metal Shaping Update. Panel take better form today. This is a challenging project, I would hope others here give it a try.

Bud - Jul 29, 2004 - 01:02 AM
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Pricer..have you seen this tech library for automotive work?

http://www.eastwood.com/jump.jsp?itemID ... e=CATEGORY

pricer - Jul 29, 2004 - 01:52 AM
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Bud wrote:

Pricer..have you seen this tech library for automotive work?

http://www.eastwood.com/jump.jsp?itemID ... e=CATEGORY

Finished the panel, took some pictures, just deleted all of them trying to upload. I will take more tomorow. Very satisfied with the results for my first project. 68' Forb Bronco front fender will be next. Must strike while the iron is hot. Bud, I went to he site you have posted the other day to look at an E-wheel but missed this. Thanks for pointing it out.

pricer - Jul 30, 2004 - 01:05 AM
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The panel is complete, well almost. I am investigating the methods used in smoothing the surface.

Bud - Jul 30, 2004 - 02:47 AM
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Nice..you're very diversified and it shows in your efforts...how are you going to smooth the surface. I watch these guys once in a while and that is an art all by itself:)

oldgoaly - Jul 30, 2004 - 07:53 AM
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Pricer,
nice job! did you say 16 gauge? 18 is about as heavy as i have found on a post war car?
19 and 20 used alot up into the 60's then it just get thinner! Smoothing/planishing an ewheel
or a planishing hammer work well, not that hard to make(if i can do it you can too!) if you get
the chance check out www.metalshapers.org, lots of ewheels, planishing hammers and etc
if you do a search on terry thorne (thats me) you can see some of the tools and a few projects.
i have an album on making ewheel anvils, also an album on the pullmax, if you have one it will
planish also. Not trying to lead you off this board but, don't have the time to load a gig of pics
again.
Sorry a little late in replying the old gall bladder had to come out and i had to spent some quality
time with the doctors and nurses at the local hospital.
Take care!
tt

pricer - Jul 30, 2004 - 12:14 PM
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Bud wrote:

Nice..you're very diversified and it shows in your efforts...how are you going to smooth the surface. I watch these guys once in a while and that is an art all by itself:)

Thanks Bud. I am not sure on how I would smooth the panel, I will get to work on that today, hopefully this evening. Another customer is bringing another part to build on Monday. Must learn fast!

pricer - Jul 30, 2004 - 12:23 PM
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oldgoaly wrote:

Pricer,
nice job! did you say 16 gauge? 18 is about as heavy as i have found on a post war car?
19 and 20 used alot up into the 60's then it just get thinner! Smoothing/planishing an ewheel
or a planishing hammer work well, not that hard to make(if i can do it you can too!) if you get
the chance check out www.metalshapers.org, lots of ewheels, planishing hammers and etc
if you do a search on terry thorne (thats me) you can see some of the tools and a few projects.
i have an album on making ewheel anvils, also an album on the pullmax, if you have one it will
planish also. Not trying to lead you off this board but, don't have the time to load a gig of pics
again.
Sorry a little late in replying the old gall bladder had to come out and i had to spent some quality
time with the doctors and nurses at the local hospital.
Take care!
tt

Yes sir, it was made from 16 gage and it was a real handfull, literally. I went to your site and really enjoyed the videos, very helpful. I want to come to one the meets you guys have and just watch. I want to purchase an e-wheel and panishing hammer but after viewing your site I am thinking of building one. We have many talented people at our hvac shop and car fabshop. I am sure we could get it done. I will read more tomorow about that possibility. I want to find some projects to hone my skills, if you can think of any productive projects please let me know. The shrinking disc I saw at your site is very intresting. Hope you recover well and get back to metalshaping, I need all the help I can get.

Thanks,

oldgoaly - Jul 30, 2004 - 09:49 PM
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Pricer,
the thing that most people don't understand is that you have to make up your mind to do it,
learn by making mistakes, after you are done you will always think of an easier way! but thats all
part of learning!!!! Heck if you like doing it the harder the project the more fun it is! Sure is allot
more info out there now than 10 yrs ago, when i made my shrink dies for the pullmax, Fay Butler
said you have the Fournier book? see picture make dies! And a little encouragement and off i went
to make those dies! and just about any other die i have needed. Seeing how other people do it does
help, i know when i have met others and see what they made, more than once i'll say now why didn't think of that! A small get together in Sedalia mo this week end, the other group metalmeet has a big gathering
in eastern illinois in october. The first 2 formfests were in Huntsville ala. i did get to spend a day there each year 01-02. probably will go to mm, spent 4 days there last year. Read the car and parts of april 04 about
mm, ya my picture is in there but they spelled my name wrong!!!
Take care!
tt

pricer - Jul 31, 2004 - 12:28 AM
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Hind sight is 20/20, I am sure we all have that one down. lol The one thing that is on my mind is to reduce the amount of welding in a panel and if the welding must be done, I want to learn the proper methods. In the morning I am going to start on a 68 Ford Bronco front fender an I am going to build it in my on time, learning as much as I can. With customers parts, time is of the essence, I have got to continue to learn more. If it were not for trial and error and the willingness to take risk, there is no telling where I would be, with anything. I will continue reading and experimenting daily, metalshaping is good!!! This site is my "home shop" and as long as Bud permits, we can talk a bit about shaping and related pattern development. I read somehing at metalmeet.com today that stated that metalshaping can be done without all of the expensive machinery, done by hand, and thats the way i want to learn it.

Thanks Terry for your comments and i hope we can have more discussions here in the future.

oldgoaly - Jul 31, 2004 - 02:27 AM
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Pricer,
the bronco fender will be allot easy on your arms, hands and shoulders! the thing about machines is they don't get tired! and if they are set up right they will do the job time after time. they don't know where to
go, they don't know how much or how long, it just takes one varible out of the process. If you haven't had that feeling of your arm is going to fall off yet! just wait a few years!!!! It is good to let ogg a little steam
by getting the big mallet out and whopping the heck out of a peice of metal, knowing that it will be as smooth
as it was in rack when done(wheeling or planishing) but when i hand shrink i tend to hit to hard and do not
get the full amount of desired shrink, i know i am doing it but???? sometimes can't help it!
Somebody just posted some pics of a 40 Willys made in Poland by hand in aluminum(metalshapers)
amazing!
By the way anyone have a 26 Chevy??? i need to redo one for myself plus i figured there would be a couple
of others looking for a radiator shell, but i need to know about the bead detail in the lower section????
both of the shells i have are gone, truck is different, 25 car should be the same, 27 is different.
Take care!
tt

pricer - Jul 31, 2004 - 03:03 AM
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Yes, the balls of my shoulder were so sore I could have screamed, I hope I can build those shoulders up in time. I pound on sheet metal setting pitts locks among other things like leadmen,lol but metal shaping requires different muscle groups, as I have found out. I clearly understand what you are talking about hand verses machine. I feel if I can do it by hand and understand how the metal can be shaped, later if I get into such machines like power hammers, I will have a better understanding of what to do. I know this is an obvious statement, just wanted you to see my line of thinking.

Is the e-wheel also used to remove bumps in the metal from hammer forming as well as crowning and compound curves? Is it possible to pannish over the shot bag with an air hammer with the right dies or would it be better to do this over a solid surface? I have a fab table that is very heavy, made from 24" I- beams and a 2" thick top, would this be better to use?

I think tomorow I will hammer out a bowl shape, I have read this is a good exersise for learning to stretch metal. As far as shrinking, is this done by hammering the surface of the metal with a steel hammer over a steel surface like a dolly post? I have been hammering 16 gage over an anvil with a heavy hammer and I think the metal was shrinking on the edge. Very time consuming.

oldgoaly - Jul 31, 2004 - 04:15 AM
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Pricer,
ewheel first, a traditional ewheel man will do all his stretching with the wheel, other will hammer(mallet)
the stretch and smooth with the wheel(what i learned to do long story) when wheeling to planish you would use very light pressure and roll the metal thru, as it smooth out a little more pressure is needed til your smooth enough.
Planishing, very light hits but lots and lots of overlapping blows, the stretch is already done you are evening out the finish/smoothing. steel flat face hammer on top, a dolly the matches the curvature of the peice, both
tools are as smooth as can be, otherwise any ding imperfections can be tranfered to the metal.
Shrinking, medium hard hit not as hard as forming but a little harder than planishing, shrink what? when you
stretch the center of a round peice the outer edges are the same as before but the stretch metal on the inside will cause the edges to pucker up or like a bottle cap, a series of small "V" will form along the edge,
evenly in a round bowl shape. this you will want to use a flat wooden or plastic mallet and the inside of the bowl you will want to have a dolly to as closely match the curvature. now the idea is to stack the metal up
on to itself, stack shrink, just like a big power hammer with shrink dies!!!! same exact process!!! this is not
the easiest thing to do or explain, but experimenting you can see how it does work, most common problem is hitting too hard and stretching the shrink out.
If you get some time i have pics of my mallet/slappers/hammers in metalshapers most of the hammers
are swapmeet buys, the slapper wooden and steel are home made along with the mallets from old fence
post bought at farm sales for less than a buck a pile.
if you notice the "el cheapo" on there, well a freind was thinking i bought those and figure at 20$ each
i had a fortune in them and i said 2 bucks at the most for all of them !!!! i'm cheap!
The leather covered slappers are for aluminum, less marking of the metal.
the air hammer with a convex shaped die will let you stretch like crazy into the shot bag, you can use it to planish but remmber flat die on top(peice is convex not concave) and a lower die as close to the shape of
peice, just think of a "C" frame to hold the hammer and the lower die, you have a planishing hammer,
go easy, not to hard!
Anything else?
The bowl is the best project you can start with, and you can cut up a bowl and use it in roll pans, fenders the shape is used in allot of things.
I am into 30's cars and panel trucks pretty mush, with some english cars tossed in.
i make some pedal car fenders that are 12" long 8" wide that take as much time as anything i make, cause
the big power tools are just too big! so i need to make a some smaller tools to make these fenders.
Take care!
tt

pricer - Jul 31, 2004 - 06:57 PM
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I admire your spirit and determenation. I went over my panel this morning and I got it fairly smooth. Around the welds were my biggest areas to straiten. I went about this all the wrong way. I read a post at metalmeet about this subject, they make it look so easy. When I was close to being finished, the bottom egde of the wheel well in the rear wore thin and began to collapse, then it was back to the welding inside and out then grinded to shape. Boy I wish I could build this panel again! Not that it would be perfect, but much was learned.It would have been better any way. I did look lots better than the last photo. I went over the panel with a DA sander using 80 grit paper, lost some grinding marks in the process. With an e-wheel and pannishing hammer and also hand tools, I should be able to get a lot more done in a reasonable amount of time shouldn't I? What other tools should I have?

pricer - Jul 31, 2004 - 11:58 PM
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Test Photo, didn't work, sorry.