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Sheet Metal Boats - How would you layout this pattern?

pricer - Jul 04, 2004 - 03:28 PM
Post subject: How would you layout this pattern?

Here is a pattern for an Origami Boat. Where would one begin to layout such a pattern and what type of seams could be used?

pricer - Jul 04, 2004 - 03:34 PM
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Here is another drawing that may help give you an idea of how this pattern is formed.

bordontn - Jul 05, 2004 - 09:26 PM
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I have seen kayaks built using this method. 1/4" plywood with the seams stitched with wire then fiberglassed over and the stitching removed.
My brother and I built an 8'-0" pram w/ 26 ga. metal in so. fla.We took in out in the Gulf.Under the Sanibel/Captiva Causeway.This had no frame and it would twist quite a bit.We sat in the bottom.I later added a couple of 1x2 wooden runners on the bottom which helped.
Not a boat builder,just curious
bordontn
the itinerant tinker

pricer - Jul 05, 2004 - 09:32 PM
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Thanks for the reply. I would love to hear more about your boat, maybe a picture??

bordontn - Jul 06, 2004 - 03:48 AM
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Pricer, That was years ago.However, I just made this evening a scale model...3"=1'-0"
The sides are straight pcs.with a 30degree cut each end.The bow & stern are cut to match.
I paned ,then knocked up the sides to the ends.Clamped a piece on the bottom & scribed around,
adding for the bottom seam.Paned & knocked it up. The bottom does not turn out flat.The bow & stern
on a full size would be about 2" above center. I'll try to get a photo on here later.
The itinerant tinker........bordontn
There are some fotos in the sheet metal gallery of some things I built..

pricer - Jul 06, 2004 - 04:02 AM
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bordontn wrote:

Pricer, That was years ago.However, I just made this evening a scale model...3"=1'-0"
The sides are straight pcs.with a 30degree cut each end.The bow & stern are cut to match.
I paned ,then knocked up the sides to the ends.Clamped a piece on the bottom & scribed around,
adding for the bottom seam.Paned & knocked it up. The bottom does not turn out flat.The bow & stern
on a full size would be about 2" above center. I'll try to get a photo on here later.
The itinerant tinker........bordontn
There are some fotos in the sheet metal gallery of some things I built..

Was this model made from sheet metal?

marky - Jul 06, 2004 - 11:40 AM
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Looking at the pictures of the hull made from card if you made the pattern in 4 parts ,2 parts from thesheerline to the line marked chine cut straight from stem to stern,the oter beingthe two bottom parts joined at the verticle centre giving another long pattern,these could then be rolled as if it were part of a conical frustrum.Hope this makes some sense aw ra best Marky

pricer - Jul 06, 2004 - 12:11 PM
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marky wrote:

Looking at the pictures of the hull made from card if you made the pattern in 4 parts ,2 parts from thesheerline to the line marked chine cut straight from stem to stern,the oter beingthe two bottom parts joined at the verticle centre giving another long pattern,these could then be rolled as if it were part of a conical frustrum.Hope this makes some sense aw ra best Marky

That helps. I am trying to figure out how the curves are paired up and how to control them. I am still working on some ideas and when they are complete I have more questions.

richmalerba - Jul 06, 2004 - 03:46 PM
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Attached are 2 patterns for your boat price. I made the first pattern the way Origami is done. Simply fold the lower vertical seem so that it is flush then fold up the side 90 degrees. The transom plate is usually welded on as a separate piece and the stem forms as the two sides come together. In your case I thought it would be simpler to leave on material to fold a bow stem and transom. Use one on the port and the other on the starboard. The boat could be built out of only two sheets. Here are the difficulties: since most boats done with this technique have a v hull the weld in the center is made stronger by the form of the structure. You could over come this weakness in the flat hull by putting rectangular bar stock or a strip of thick plate down the center on the underside of the hull. This would allow you to rivet both sides together as well as provide a “keel” that would reduce sideward skating. The second pattern shows the full bottom with extensions for the bow and transom. You could make the boat out of three pieces and have a solid bottom by attaching the sides to a solid bottom sheet. I hope this helps. I also ran your hull shape through a great piece of free software called Chine hull designer by Carlson. It also calculated your hull to draw 2” at 600lbs.

bordontn - Jul 06, 2004 - 06:09 PM
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PRICER ! What I described would make a great hog trough. I negleted to say that the bottom deminsion @ stern & bow is 28" ...36" @ widest point. When you put it together the sides flare out and the bottom is bowed stem to stern. My mock-up is 30 ga. scrap pipe.
the itinerant tinker
bordontn

pricer - Jul 07, 2004 - 12:22 AM
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richmalerba wrote:

Attached are 2 patterns for your boat price. I made the first pattern the way Origami is done. Simply fold the lower vertical seem so that it is flush then fold up the side 90 degrees. The transom plate is usually welded on as a separate piece and the stem forms as the two sides come together. In your case I thought it would be simpler to leave on material to fold a bow stem and transom. Use one on the port and the other on the starboard. The boat could be built out of only two sheets. Here are the difficulties: since most boats done with this technique have a v hull the weld in the center is made stronger by the form of the structure. You could over come this weakness in the flat hull by putting rectangular bar stock or a strip of thick plate down the center on the underside of the hull. This would allow you to rivet both sides together as well as provide a “keel” that would reduce sideward skating. The second pattern shows the full bottom with extensions for the bow and transom. You could make the boat out of three pieces and have a solid bottom by attaching the sides to a solid bottom sheet. I hope this helps. I also ran your hull shape through a great piece of free software called Chine hull designer by Carlson. It also calculated your hull to draw 2” at 600lbs.

Thanks for running the design through the Chine Hull program. Your layouts of the boats you have posted have opened my eyes to new possibilities. I am trying a program called Hull Forms 9, is it similar to the program you are using? Will these programs “unfold” the boat once it is designed? I think that would be very useful for a sheet metal boat I think. I guess if the program would not unfold like the Origami I had posted, it would show you what the individual parts look like and you could workout the parts into an Origami style layout like putting a puzzle together. Does this make sense? Thanks again for you assistance. I hope you have he time to browse the library at this site, I am sure you can find useful information. Hope to hear more and when you begin to build your sheet metal boat, I hope you will post some of the results here. Any sheet metal questions you may have are more than welcome here. Welcome to the Shop.

Thanks

bordontn - Jul 07, 2004 - 03:27 AM
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Quote:

Was this model made from sheet metal?

Pricer.....used some scrap 30 ga. pipe.Trying to get a photo on here....
If ya laugh at it I'll use it for a flower box Smile

bordontn - Jul 07, 2004 - 03:32 AM
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Quote:

Was this model made from sheet metal?

pricer - Jul 07, 2004 - 03:37 AM
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bordontn wrote:

Quote:

Was this model made from sheet metal?

Hello, sorry had to run for a moment. I would really like to see a photo of your boat. I was thinking of saving some of the 30 gage scrap pipe from the shop to experiement with. Seeing you boat would be help to me, I am still stuggling with the solder, no laughs from me. I posted some pictures in the photo gallery of the 20 gage boat to get the ball rolling.

Thanks,

bordontn - Jul 07, 2004 - 03:46 AM
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bordontn wrote:

Quote:

Was this model made from sheet metal?

pricer - Jul 07, 2004 - 03:50 AM
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Very nice! I hope I can do that well. Is it soldered together? I bought an electric iron and could use some help getting set up. I will show a pic of mine when it is done. Thanks

bordontn - Jul 09, 2004 - 03:18 AM
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Pricer....I'm not going to solder my model in case I want to use it for a planter Smile

If I did I would do the inside with a hot iron to flow it into the seam. An elec. iron will work on thin metal. Something like a seam requires a lot of heat.Your e-iron would have to be big enough to hold a lot of heat. I can't say what wattage. I use a burner from a small bathroom gas heater to heat mine. I sometimes use a 5# set which is 2 1/2# each. They're sold in pairs. On my lap joints I use one that is about 3/4" square. I've probably have 15+.Bought a flea mkts.I use muriatic acid for galv. mtl & "Ruby Fluid",zinc cloride for copper as a flux.For cleaning as I solder I dip the iron into sal-ammoniac dissolved in water. To tin your iron before use; heat as hot as it will get.(your e-iron)Flame broiled copper should be dull red.Clean w/file.Rub on piece of sal-ammoniac while melting solder on iron.As you're soldering don't overheat your iron. It will burn tinning off & you can start over! Try it you'll like it!! bordontn "the itinerant tinker"
Do you have any books?Lindsay Publications Inc. has reproductions of some old sht. mtl. related books.Practical Metal Plate Work.!st published in 1907...(ISBN 1-55918-159-1)Thas a good'n.

pricer - Jul 09, 2004 - 03:31 AM
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bordontn wrote:

Pricer....I'm not going to solder my model in case I want to use it for a planter Smile

Thanks for the info. I just put the largest of my e-irons away, not near enough heat I think. I am working with 24 gage tonight and I am pulling myhair out over the soldering. Once I get this soldering out of the way I will show my model sheet metal boat. I will try more tommorow. What size iron would I need for such a job? I was thinking of using my ss turkey cooker burner to heat a mild steel box mounted on top to heat the iron. This should work? The night wasen't a total waste, I did learn a little bit more today. More tommorow......

pricer - Jul 10, 2004 - 02:27 AM
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bordontn,,,, I purchased (2) 2 lbs copper irons today they had to order the sal brick for me, not in stock.
I am learning more about the Origami boat layout, lots of sustained thinking and trial and error. I had drawn a test hull I had layed out today in the CAD program attached to my plasma table. After work I taped a sharpie marker to the plasma torch and used the machine to draw a large scale model on cardboard by running it in trial mode, just motion no fire.bIt turned out well, think I will cut it out tomorow if I get time. What size iron do you use for cardboard again? lol Very Happy

Just tape and glue untill I get more figured out then its to the sheet metal. Still searching for info of boat design.

Thanks

Bud - Jul 10, 2004 - 02:51 AM
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Tape a sharpie marker to the plasma tourch...Actually they have a machine like that, all it does is the layout...still looking at about 10 grand I think...

pricer - Jul 10, 2004 - 03:01 AM
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LOL, No its not a deticated machine that uses a sharpie. I was cheating by using the plasma table in a new and creative way. After 4:30 pm the plasma table becomes a 5' x 10' plotter lol Very Happy

. The machine can still travel without the plasma flame on in what is called trial cut. The machine actually came with a holder that replaces the torch for drawing on plate to see how things will fit before cutting the expensive material. Very handy tool, one can draw in CAD and download the drawing to the plasma cutter and then draw the shape onto paper, metal ect.. in minutes. Taping the marker to the torch assy. was a quick way to do the drawing without upseting the torch position. This is only the second time I have bone this in the last 4 years but it is handy.

Thanks,

pricer - Jul 10, 2004 - 07:11 PM
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Well , Here it is. This is a random design, the one that I mentioned in the previous post. I mocked this up in cardboard. I am coninuing to work on my boat design in the mean time. I will post the results of my studies when they are complete. More later....

Thanks, Very Happy

pricer - Jul 11, 2004 - 12:54 PM
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This is not the layout of the cardboard boat half model in the previous post but it is very similar.

bordontn - Jul 12, 2004 - 12:57 AM
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Pricer: go to www.unclejohns.com They sell kits and plans..also I bought a kit to build a pirouge. It turned out great..You need to use a very cool iron on cardboard Razz

pricer - Jul 12, 2004 - 01:12 AM
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bordontn wrote:

Pricer: go to www.unclejohns.com They sell kits and plans..also I bought a kit to build a pirouge. It turned out great..You need to use a very cool iron on cardboard Razz

You are right that is a nice litle boat. After seeing it about three years ago I built one with out the kit, wish I had of bought it.Cooool Iron huh. lol

pricer - Jul 12, 2004 - 01:30 AM
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This is a new idea I had for a single sheet boat. This boat could be made with a 5" x 10" sheet of metal. I got to deep on the other boat layout and will pick it back up in a few days. Half round parts could be added to the exterior sides of the hull to give it more displacement. This is deffenatly a triangulation layout boat. What do you think?

Thanks